AI Stubbornness

[Rufus T. Firefly]

I've only been playing for a month, and I'm only playing my first game at Regent, but I've never seen anything like this (and it's certainly a big change from Civ2):

I share a continent with the French; I'm the #1 Civ, they're number 3 or 4. We've been friendly the whole game, and allies a couple of times. Out of the blue they attack, very cleverly; three of my cities are razed in quick succession before the turn is over. But I do have a decent military (badly positioned, apparently ), and an MPP with the English, who have the largest army going. It takes a while, but eventually the French empire is reduced from 20 cities to 3, and those 3 all have my tanks stacked on their doorstep.

Here's the thing: Not once in the 20 or so turns that this took did the French come asking for a peace treaty. Is the AI programmed for suicide? It seems to me very bizarre, from both a gameplay and realism point of view, that they would fight on and on in a war where they're getting creamed. What's the deal with that?

[The Pioneer]

This never happened to me , it could be that it's just a coincidence. Maybe they were holding some grudges over a deal that you may have broken in the past. Did you try to contact them? Did they refuse? One thing is for sure this is not the norm.

So long...

[Lucarse]

I don't know Rufus, I have had an AI on its knees (funny enough the french again) and it never once came to the table by itself.
On the odd occasion i called them to see what they would offer for a settlement (knowing full well i wouldn't take it) they offered very little.

I had wiped out most of its military (attacking units) in the first three turns and had stolen/obliterated its oil and Aluminium supplies (no Tanks no MA's no MI's) still they never surrendered.

They kept pumping out regular infantry until the very end.

[Laertes]

It might just be level-induced dumbness.

I am also playing against the French. We warred early on (they declared out of the blue - we were not neighbours) which ended quickly. Then we were peaceable and friendly, with a little trade, for about 2000 years. Then they were lured into an attack on me, by which time I was far ahead in tech.

After a few turns of bulding up some units and pillaging their iron and rubber, I stormed in and took one big city. I did not want a long war, offered peace for one of their cities (leaving them about 6 cities) and they took the deal.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Lucarse
I don't know Rufus, I have had an AI on its knees (funny enough the french again) and it never once came to the table by itself.
On the odd occasion i called them to see what they would offer for a settlement (knowing full well i wouldn't take it) they offered very little.

I had wiped out most of its military (attacking units) in the first three turns and had stolen/obliterated its oil and Aluminium supplies (no Tanks no MA's no MI's) still they never surrendered.

They kept pumping out regular infantry until the very end.

This is very similar (just a bit earlier on the tech tree). In fact, the very first city I sacked cost them their only Iron supply, and one of the next few cost them their only Saltpeter (by which time I had the world-wide embargo in place); and yet they keep coming -- with longbows and horsemen!

I haven't bothered contacting them, because I don't want to annoy my English allies. But I really can't believe they haven't asked for a tete-a-tete. Maybe God told Joan not to .

And in answer to Pioneer: except for a couple of deals I turned down, there's nothing I've done to encourage a grudge; we've been pals, allies, and trading partners throughout the game. Quel strange...

[vmxa1]

This is quite common behavor since around 121 or 129. It was decided that the AI was being abused by having war decaled on it and whacking 1 or 2 cities and making peace for what ever you could get. This was corrected or rather over corrected. Now the AI will often not even pipe up and ask for peace as you annihilate it. You can offer/demand peace some times in this case.
The level does not have any impact I have this at Monarch and Emperor all the time. I can not say about Deity as I play so few games at that level.
PTW has the same characteristics.

[Carver]

Maybe the French aren't the people who surrender, they're the people who are conquered ...suddle difference.

Anyway, the AI is very stubborn when "surrendering". I can usually get cash and maps out of them no problem, but for techs I have to take out the big can of whiparse.

[Coracle]

Re: AI Stubbornness

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
I've only been playing for a month, and I'm only playing my first game at Regent, but I've never seen anything like this (and it's certainly a big change from Civ2):

I share a continent with the French; I'm the #1 Civ, they're number 3 or 4. We've been friendly the whole game, and allies a couple of times. Out of the blue they attack, very cleverly; three of my cities are razed in quick succession before the turn is over. But I do have a decent military (badly positioned, apparently ), and an MPP with the English, who have the largest army going. It takes a while, but eventually the French empire is reduced from 20 cities to 3, and those 3 all have my tanks stacked on their doorstep.

Here's the thing: Not once in the 20 or so turns that this took did the French come asking for a peace treaty. Is the AI programmed for suicide? It seems to me very bizarre, from both a gameplay and realism point of view, that they would fight on and on in a war where they're getting creamed. What's the deal with that?

It is another form of AI cheat to screw the human.

I once had a smaller Roman civ on the other side of a large continent out of the blue declare war on me for no reason. It must have taken him a dozen or more turns to reach me, and then he attacks, and is easily beaten. Fifteen turns later he is back for another beating. Soon after he asks for peace. Absurd.

I once fought an Aztec civ that would not make peace. I have said all year some civs are progammed for suicide as they are working with their AI civs against the human. One civ sacrifices itself to weaken the human.

BTW, it is often crucial for the human to exterminate entire civs in a long and tedious war to prevent that Culture Flipping nonsense.

"Realism"? Don't look for it with Civ 3.

[MiloMilo]

Some civs are so aggressive that it sometimes gets suicidal. I'm thinking Zulu, Aztecs, Romans, Germans. How often do these civs make it to the modern age in your games?

A way to fix this is to lower theri aggression levels in the editor.

Rufus that does sound strange, but my guess is that your armed forces were indeed very badly positioned. Three cities razed in one turn? Ouch! but, the fact is you shouldn't have been so vulnerable in the first place. They must have been fairly close to the French border, and they must have had small garrisons: I'm guessing no more than 2 or 3 defenders in each, right? The fact is, they were too much of a temptation. Maybe they contained luxury or strategic resources? Guard your border cities.

You can't reasonably wrap your hand in bacon and then get pissed when your dog bites it.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by MiloMilo
Rufus that does sound strange, but my guess is that your armed forces were indeed very badly positioned. Three cities razed in one turn? Ouch! but, the fact is you shouldn't have been so vulnerable in the first place. They must have been fairly close to the French border, and they must have had small garrisons: I'm guessing no more than 2 or 3 defenders in each, right? The fact is, they were too much of a temptation. Maybe they contained luxury or strategic resources? Guard your border cities.

You can't reasonably wrap your hand in bacon and then get pissed when your dog bites it.

No argument here; I'm a lousy warmonger and a worse micromanager, and just wasn't paying attention. Luckily, they were 3 pretty crappy cities (small, lousy land, few improvements), so they weren't much missed. I'm not that surprised that the French struck; I'm just still stunned that they didn't cry "Uncle" once I paid them back with loan-shark-size interest.

[Dr. A. Cula]

I've seen this happen quite a lot in Civ2 and SMAC, but I haven't seen it yet in Civ3. Always towrds the end of the game, one or more AIs would declare war out of the blue, get pounded, yet even when they had absolutely no units left and were down to their last city they still refused to make peace and kept raving about how they will destroy me.
It was annoying at first, but now I have changed tactics to turn warmonger in the late game to accomodate for this "feature" and I must say it's fun.

[Captain THC]

They're French, they can't help it.

[bongo]

Civ2 AI's were way too aggressive for their own good. The minute they build ONE offensive unit they would attack right away. Suicidal maniacs.

The civ3 AI is a bit smarter. It's still stubborn to the extreme but not as bad as civ2. I've seen that it's stubborness appears mostly when you want gold/tech to make peace. If you just want to make peace they agree more easily.

[jshelr]

Vmxa1, "I can not say about Deity as I play so few games at that level."

IMO, PTW deity level shows the behavior you guys are talking about in spades.

Two games ago, the Vikings and Egypt (my civ) were the only two civs left after endless wars which Egypt stayed mostly out of. Egypt was about 5 techs ahead in the early modern era (believe it or not) and began to nuke the Vikes every second turn. Not only would they not make peace as their civ was reduced to rubble, they constantly demanded a tech from Egypt.

Next game, early on, Russia was a desert civ next to Egypt. As the chariots rolled up Russian cities, Egypt regularly asked for a couple of techs. Egypt was way behind in the early going, had extorted a couple of techs from France, and wanted to oscillate over to England to take a couple of cities and more tech. So, Russia could have stopped the war any turn with a couple of cheap techs that were way behind the learning curve. But they never would agree to that until they were ground down to only one city.

BTW, I think deity is easier now. The AI are so warlike that they don't build as much and don't research as fast, at least in the games I've played so far. The second game is a 16 civ affair and you would think at least some civs would have stayed peaceful and taken a large tech lead on the warmongers. Not so.

[planetfall]

vxma1 is correct. AI seldom offers techs now and is very stingy in offerings. This does sound like a Firaxis overcorrect.

== PF