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**Theben** · February 1, 2000, 03:05

Was it necessary to create so many different threads?

**Atahualpa** · February 1, 2000, 06:22

I wouldnt consider #11 as atrocity, do other nations really care how much tax someone puts on his/her people?

Ata

**pkokko** · February 1, 2000, 07:07

I think this has been mentioned in a previous thread, but here we go:

Should there really be a preset list of actions that _are_ atrocities? Like Atahualpa said: Do other nations really care?

However, your list is good. But what I would like, is that these were only _possibly_ atrocities. What is and what is not should be decided in the game play. Not all worlds need to end up the same. One implementation could be that each civilization chooses from the list a set of actions that it considers to be crimes. The atrocities set could also be modified later. Civilizations do evolve. The AIs could base their selections on their personalities and their form of government.

The atrocities set could then affect the diplomatic play:

Babylonians: "The French have launched an unprovoked attack against us! Help!"

Mongols: "Yes? Is there a problem? Should we actually care?"

Romans: "An outrage! We will send help immediately!"

And, of course, The Ruler is not the same as The People. If Lincoln of the American Democracy decides to check the "Slavery is an atrocity" option it might be that not everyone of his people agrees...

------------------
petri.kokko@hut.fi

**Harel** · February 1, 2000, 08:54

Some responses:

Theben: Well, atleast now i get some response back from the people, so i guess it was a good move...

Atahualpa: I used taxs to describe how the civ world shows a ruler that cares not about it's people. One can say, that a nation that has a despotic rule, has an enourmous tax rate and no luxries, is equal, game-world, to our world where a ruler treats it's people harshly. CTP has labor pay to show that. And yes, other nations, mainly democracy, so care about another nation which people are suffering.

pkokko: it's exactrly in the suggestions! If you would notice, this thread is only an extract of the entire summary ( check out the thread summary, 2.21 ). Check out the summary in section 8.2, and 8.3, where the rules of an evoulation of the world rules of conduct is shown.

**Theben** · February 1, 2000, 11:55

As long as no one else thinks your plan is great and copies it; then we'll have to work out a compromise.

**Atahualpa** · February 1, 2000, 15:15

quote:

Atahualpa: I used taxs to describe how the civ world shows a ruler that cares not about it's people. One can say, that a nation that has a despotic rule, has an enourmous tax rate and no luxries, is equal, game-world, to our world where a ruler treats it's people harshly. CTP has labor pay to show that. And yes, other nations, mainly democracy, so care about another nation which people are suffering.

Democracy, sure. Show me that Democracy. 100,000 of Hutus and Tutsis dead, nobody cared. Lots of children suffering and starving in the third world - Democracies dump food into the sea, cause of overproduction. Democracy gives a **** about how people in other countries are treated. (well, not really a ****, but I think you are overvalueing dem. its not soo good; its intention and idea is good, but as always, humans have ****ed it up).

I like pkokko's idea. In OUR world we consider these points atrocities. Maybe if there was a tiny change in history we wouldnt see some points as atrocities, while points we call "normal" nowadays we would consider atrocities, if you get my point.

ATa

**Harel** · February 3, 2000, 14:04

To Atahualpa and NoviceCEO:

I am NOT disputing this. But like I said before, this is the list of all POSSIBLE atrocities. I also told pkokko that the rules of conduct and treatment to atrocities is evolving.
In OUR world maybe such behaviour is less important and accepted, but in another one all democracies might hate, complain and wage war on nations without any respect for human lives.

The list of atrocities is all the POSSIBLE crimes, and we all agree it's a crime... the fact that our goverements don't think so doesn't change that.
Why don't you, instead of bringing valid but not important to this forum thought, suggests new ideas for atrocities?

**NoviceCEO** · February 4, 2000, 01:38

quote:

Originally posted by Atahualpa on 02-01-2000 02:15 PM
Democracy, sure. Show me that Democracy. 100,000 of Hutus and Tutsis dead, nobody cared. Lots of children suffering and starving in the third world - Democracies dump food into the sea, cause of overproduction. Democracy gives a **** about how people in other countries are treated. (well, not really a ****, but I think you are overvalueing dem. its not soo good; its intention and idea is good, but as always, humans have ****ed it up).

ATa

Good thoughts Ata. Think for example, USA, they say our orange causes disease and people die of hunger here in Brazil, or France, they protect their rural production.

We live in a hipocrit (if that's the word) world.

**Dobermann** · February 4, 2000, 04:24

This one might go under #26-Brain wash ..not sure..

But forbidding a certain/or all religions could be one?

**pkokko** · February 4, 2000, 07:10

>I am NOT disputing this. But like I said before, this is the list of
>all POSSIBLE atrocities. I also told pkokko that the rules of
>conduct and treatment to atrocities is evolving.

Sorry about that. I read your earlier summary (which BTW was truly an impressive job!) and sure enough, there "my" suggestions already were. The penalty of entering a discussion late, I guess...

Possible atrocities is the way to go, but I think we are still missing a great variety of them: possible atrocities that we as real persons don't count as crimes but that might be in some other timeline. So, here we go:

- A government by the people, i.e. in Civ2 terms: Republic, Communism, and Democracy. (It is contrary to the Divine Order or just Insane Anarchy)

- A certain religion or ethnicity if those are implemented. (Too bad this has plagued OTL, too...)

- Making war without honor, e.g. without declaring it first, attacking cities, attacking non-military units, etc.

- Trading in illegal commodities, i.e. one or more commodities are considered harmful, taboo, holy, etc.

- Building a city on a certain terrain, e.g. "The Tree Spirits are angered!"

- Immoral society, i.e. too much luxuries.

**stodlum** · February 4, 2000, 12:52

I presume what the game considers an atrocity will change over time, and what state you are already in with the other nations.

**Harel** · February 11, 2000, 19:39

And away we bump...

**Hanuman** · February 11, 2000, 20:32

quote:

Originally posted by Atahualpa on 02-01-2000 02:15 PM
Lots of children suffering and starving in the third world - Democracies dump food into the sea, cause of overproduction.

This might seem trivial or irrelevant, and I guess it is sort of off-topic, but may I beg pardon for pointing out that this is fallacious. The theory of overproduction is false. Say's Law, which says that "supply creates demand," is correct. Thus the market will always clear if you let it. In other words, the food that was (is) dumped could be sold at a lower price instead (since as supply increases, price falls). That it isn't sold is not necessarily characteristic of democracy--it's just the way things have turned out (so far). The government pays farmers to dump, and that's why they do it--not because they just can't stop producing. It is possible to have a democracy in which the government doesn't do this, but again, "overproduction" is not an inherent problem of democracy, just a false theory that unfortunately has long been acted on--with, as you point out, harmful effects on the world at large (though of course certain farmers benefit).

[This message has been edited by Hanuman (edited February 11, 2000).]

**Harel** · February 19, 2000, 05:54

Bump...

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