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**Builder** · October 29, 2000, 14:15

Stefu is right.

long long long long long turns...

**Ralf** · October 29, 2000, 15:05

- The lacking system resources that Shogun Gunner talks about is one BIG problem.

- The looong, looong turns that Stefu talks about is a second BIG problem.

- The AI-programming nightmare that i am talking about is a third really BIG problem. Both Civ, Civ-2, SMAC and CTP have had unit-navigational and diplomacy-related bug-problems managing only 6 AI-civs. And that above problems would grow NOT logaritmically, but exponentially by adding 90+ independent AI-civs.

- The fact that Firaxis only staff 25+ people, and only maybe 3-4 dedicated to AI programming is a fourth BIG problem.

- The fact that Firaxis *must* release a game that is playable also on at least 2 year old machines to ensure the maximal of potential customers is the final nail in the coffin.

Ribannah quote: "Programming lots of nations and their diplomatic relations is not difficult at all. It has been done several years ago in "Birthright: The Gorgon's Alliance".

Not difficult at all, huh?
Somehove i believe that making comparisons with a several year older and a lot less complex DOS-game is rather irrelevant.

Anyway, lets hope Firaxis will answer jrhughes98 mail.
Quote: "This will certainly settle the debate".

Well, lets hope so.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited October 29, 2000).]

**Ribannah** · October 29, 2000, 16:58

quote:

Originally posted by Ralf on 10-29-2000 02:05 PM
Ribannah quote: "Programming lots of nations and their diplomatic relations is not difficult at all. It has been done several years ago in "Birthright: The Gorgon's Alliance".

Not difficult at all, huh?
Somehove i believe that making comparisons with a several year older and a lot less complex DOS-game is rather irrelevant.

BtGA is in many ways more complex than Civ2, especially the diplomacy part. It's just not as good. The version I have is playable over the Internet btw.

There have been pen & paper games more complex than Civ2, which is in fact not a complex game at all. It's trying to play the game WELL that creates the complexity, that is what makes it so great.

Ralf, you simply have no idea what you're talking about. It is hardly any extra work to allow for 100 civs. On the contrary, with fewer civs the artificial intelligence needs MORE work to make it a challenge.

Speed and memory are not an issue with a mere 10,000 relationships. The expansion is only quadratic btw, not exponential.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

**Ralf** · October 29, 2000, 17:43

quote:

Originally posted by Ribannah on 10-29-2000 03:58 PM
Ralf, you simply have no idea what you're talking about. It is hardly any extra work to allow for 100 civs. On the contrary, with fewer civs the artificial intelligence needs MORE work to make it a challenge.

Well, i am sure that you are confident in thinking you understand these things better. Whatever makes you happy, is fine by me.

**jrhughes98** · October 29, 2000, 18:08

Still waiting for a response from Firaxis. . .

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JRH

**MarkG** · October 29, 2000, 18:41

quote:

Originally posted by jrhughes98 on 10-29-2000 05:08 PM
Still waiting for a response from Firaxis. . .

you posted something 2 days ago and you expect a response from firaxis???????

**jrhughes98** · October 29, 2000, 18:51

quote:

Originally posted by MarkG on 10-29-2000 05:41 PM

Originally posted by jrhughes98 on 10-29-2000 05:08 PM
Still waiting for a response from Firaxis. . .

you posted something 2 days ago and you expect a response from firaxis???????

**Shogun Gunner** · October 29, 2000, 18:51

I think Ralf is making a lot of good points. I don't understand why you would say that adding more complexity to a program will make it run better and without additional problems. Increasing the number of civs will magnify any bugs that do exist. Your premise of a more complexity game easier to program than a simple game is not in synch with what we see in the industry.

Games with voluminous programming code, more features with more complexity have more bugs and inter-operability problems. It's basic to Software Engineering. Refer to http://www.sei.cmu.edu/cmm/
That's who told me!

In never heard of "Birthright: The Gorgon's Alliance." I might have to check that out to see how that works. Worth my while?

I seriously doubt we will hear anything from Firaxis, so it will most likely wait until product release.

**jrhughes98** · October 29, 2000, 18:57

quote:

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner on 10-29-2000 05:51 PM
I think Ralf is making a lot of good points. I don't understand why you would say that adding more complexity to a program will make it run better and without additional problems. Increasing the number of civs will magnify any bugs that do exist. Your premise of a more complexity game easier to program than a simple game is not in synch with what we see in the industry.

Games with voluminous programming code, more features with more complexity have more bugs and inter-operability problems. It's basic to Software Engineering. Refer to http://www.sei.cmu.edu/cmm/
That's who told me!

In never heard of "Birthright: The Gorgon's Alliance." I might have to check that out to see how that works. Worth my while?

I seriously doubt we will hear anything from Firaxis, so it will most likely wait until product release.

You know, if Firaxis just decided to "keep it simple" then we would end up with a game not much better than Civ2. It'll be just like Microsoft's pitiful upgrades from Windows 95 to 98 to ME. I expected something much more from each upgrade of Windows and Microsoft just didn't deliver it. Let's face it! This is the 21st century and high standards is a very BIG priority!!!

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JRH
[This message has been edited by jrhughes98 (edited October 29, 2000).]

**MarkG** · October 29, 2000, 19:17

quote:

Originally posted by jrhughes98 on 10-29-2000 05:51 PM
No, silly! I can see you haven't done your homework.

oh, sorry, ok... let me rephrase the question

you sent a mail to firaxis perhaps less than 24 hours ago, and on a Saturday, and you expect an answer????

**Ribannah** · October 29, 2000, 19:19

quote:

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner on 10-29-2000 05:51 PM
I think Ralf is making a lot of good points. I don't understand why you would say that adding more complexity to a program will make it run better and without additional problems. Increasing the number of civs will magnify any bugs that do exist. Your premise of a more complexity game easier to program than a simple game is not in synch with what we see in the industry.

My point is that increasing the number of civs DOESN'T add complexity. It doesn't even add (much) programming code. In fact it's likely to reduce the code. Naturally this would change if Firaxis would think of a way to actually do something with the new scale, like introducing religion as is discussed in another thread.

About "Birthright: The Gorgon's Alliance": as a game (by SIERRA), it could have been better. I find it interesting because of some of the features. It is a mix of strategy & adventure - with to my taste too many compromises in both fields. For discussing Civ3, the diplomacy is very interesting, as well as the use of leaders.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

**jrhughes98** · October 29, 2000, 20:16

quote:

Originally posted by Ralf on 10-29-2000 02:05 PM
- The looong, looong turns that Stefu talks about is a second BIG problem.

- The fact that Firaxis *must* release a game that is playable also on at least 2 year old machines to ensure the maximal of potential customers is the final nail in the coffin.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited October 29, 2000).]

I can see someone hasn't been doing their homework.

quote:

Originally posted by jrhughes98 on 10-27-2000 11:50 PM
Again, a simple solution: Allow a maximum of about 10 human players and about 90 AI's on a HUGE map (with units that can move around much faster than in Civ2). In the game setup you can choose the maximum number of human players you want, and the minimum and maximum number of AI's you want (for when tribes split apart, form federations, etc.).

Now of course we all know that human players are slower than the computer. Humans have to think; computers just "get up and go!" But some people have very slow computers, so to compromise an extra utility should come with the game that takes into account such things as the speed of your processor, the amount of system RAM you have, how much video memory you have, the speed/size of your hard disk, etc., and calculates the maximum number of tribes that your computer is capable of handling without having any problems.

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JRH
[This message has been edited by jrhughes98 (edited October 29, 2000).]

**Ribannah** · October 30, 2000, 01:15

quote:

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner on 10-28-2000 11:33 AM
Once again, a great idea, just not workable.

I'm telling you it's not a function of RAM, disk space, disk speed, processor of YOUR computer. It's a programming issue. Take my word for it, it would be incredibly difficult and I'm absolutely sure it would outstrip anything you could put together from computer equipment on the open market.

Unless you purchase 20+ risc workstation and network them together in your home. Of course the game would need to programmed to take advantage of this configuration. You think people complained about system requirements before!!!

Programming lots of nations and their diplomatic relations is not difficult at all. It has been done several years ago in "Birthright: The Gorgon's Alliance". The real question is: will it add anything at all to the gameplay? I have my doubts. Chances are, having many more civs will merely increase the luck factor, unless it would be much, much harder to conquer a city. But then we would have a totally different game.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

**SWPIGWANG The Second** · October 31, 2000, 00:19

I'd say processing power is not a big problem. The number of cities and units will not exceed a late Civ 2 game as small civ gets eaten up FAST. The number of diplomatic connections for each civ will not be huge as they quickly kill each other and block each other's exploration attempts.

**Deathwalker** · November 1, 2000, 06:13

Though it is a good idea, we would all need Pentium 4's 1.6 GHZ chips with 500 MB Ram for it to work. I personally think minors civs to add spice to the game is a better idea.

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I have walked since the dawn of time and were ever I walk, death is sure to follow

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