Scientific Civs' Free Techs?

[metalhead]

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[metalhead]

Sorry to offer pure conjecture when a definitive answer was asked for, but could it possibly have to do with getting the cheapest tech first? It's been awhile since I've gotten anything other than Mono, Nat, and Rock as my freebies. This seems to correlate to the fact that I have been ahead in tech in my last 6 or 7 games at these points. Perhaps on the off-times where another tech has been received (I myself have received all of the "off-choices" before), it means that one or more non-scientific civs have reached the next age first, and discovered one of the other techs first, reducing its cost to below that of Mono/Nat/Rock, depending on the age.

This theory sounds good, although I have never witnessed an AI scientific civ receiving a different tech upon entering a new age. Perhaps it is something to pay attention to.

[Catt]

Originally posted by metalhead
. . . could it possibly have to do with getting the cheapest tech first?

It's an interesting theory, but I don't think it works. I don't have access to the editor right now, but I am pretty sure that the editor's "beaker cost" for Nationalism is 120 while the editor's beaker cost for Medicine is 100. Plus, the "trade cost" for Nationalism is a lot higher than its 120 beaker cost. Both theses facts would imply that something else is at work in the selection (otherwise we would often get Medicine?), but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

Catt

[metalhead]

Yeah, I'm at work and thought medicine was cheaper, but figured I'd try a theory anyways. Maybe it gives you the 2nd least expensive one. Or, maybe it is completely random, with Mono/Nat/Rock having higher probabilities than the others, although I do only seem to get other techs when at parity or behind in techs

[Catt]

Originally posted by metalhead
. . . although I do only seem to get other techs when at parity or behind in techs

Before the game that occasioned this thread, I can't specifically remember the last time I got anything other than Mono / Nat / Rocketry, but I know that I had at some point. And in this game I had an absolute commanding tech lead.

Sure would like to hear from Firaxis as to how a scientific civ's free tech is chosen -- it's not terribly important to the game, but it's just become a bit of a nagging curiousity at this point.

Catt

[Arrian]

I dunno about all this, but I definitely try to kill off the scientific AI civs. Those SOBs always pass nationalism around!

-Arrian

[Hurricane]

I think it is based on the idea that you get the cheapest tech. But instead of actually looking which tech is cheapest, maybe Firaxis made a separate list which shows the techs in order, which they didn't change after altering the costs in the new patches.

The reason I believe it has to do with cost is that this would be in line with techs from goody huts. You always get the cheapest tech available from a tech goody hut.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Hurricane
I think it is based on the idea that you get the cheapest tech. But instead of actually looking which tech is cheapest, maybe Firaxis made a separate list which shows the techs in order, which they didn't change after altering the costs in the new patches.

But, Nationalism has the same "editor cost" as Steam Power, and a significantly higher "trade cost" to boot, and Medicine is cheaper than both in "editor cost" and, in my limited experience, in trade cost. Also, Ecology has a higher "editor cost" than Rocketry (so why would I get Ecology?) and, although purely anecdotal and on limited experience, Ecology seems also to have a higher "trade cost" than Rocketry.

Sorry to keep this dead thread alive since I know it's ultimately not very important, but the subject has been a tiny little woodpecker working away at a soft spot in my brain. why? why? why? why? why?

Catt

[Dominae]

I also would like to know how the game decides which free techs Scientific civs get at every age. Monotheism is fine, I'll rarely want the either of the other two first in any given game. Nationalism is just annoying...I never use its abilities (mostly because the other civs already have it and so I have the option to sign MPPs anyway); Steam Power is the tech that you want in the Industrial age. The Modern age is a toss-up: sometimes I'll want Fission just to end the game right then and there, and sometimes I'm just waiting to get Computers kick some butt with Mech. Infantry. Rocketry has its obvious uses for the Space Race.

It's unfortunate that you can't simply pick the one you want every time...would that be so unbalanced?


Dominae

[metalhead]

Originally posted by Catt

Sorry to keep this dead thread alive since I know it's ultimately not very important, but the subject has been a tiny little woodpecker working away at a soft spot in my brain. why? why? why? why? why?

Catt

Catt, I was going create the same thread very soon if I hadn't seen yours - I think more people would like an answer to this than you may think!

I had another thought (go figure!) that maybe you get the tech owned by the most civs. If you are the first to reach a new age, you automatically get Mono/Nat/Rock, but it seems that you sometimes get one of the others only when you are lagging behind. Perhaps if an equal # of Civs own each of the beginning techs, you get one randomly. Since I am ready to step un to Emperor, and will no doubt be pitifully behind in the first couple games, I will observe what happens when I enter new ages behind in techs and look for some sort of pattern.

[Catt]

Originally posted by metalhead
I had another thought (go figure!) that maybe you get the tech owned by the most civs. If you are the first to reach a new age, you automatically get Mono/Nat/Rock, but it seems that you sometimes get one of the others only when you are lagging behind. Perhaps if an equal # of Civs own each of the beginning techs, you get one randomly.

Another interesting guess, but:

Originally posted by Catt
Before the game that occasioned this thread, I can't specifically remember the last time I got anything other than Mono / Nat / Rocketry, but I know that I had at some point. And in this game I had an absolute commanding tech lead.

I was half an age ahead of the nearest competitor when I got Ecology.

Perhaps it is the other way around? That if you are the first to a new age, you get something random, but if you're not first you get the most widely-known tech? But would the rules be different for human and AI? because it seems that the AI pretty much always get Mono / Nat / Rocketry, whether first to the age or not.



Catt

[metalhead]

Well, it's officially a mystery. Maybe a little hint from Firaxis will be forthcoming?

[monkspider]

Maybe a Firaxis member will be nice enough to stop by and grace us with the answer to this. I doubt it though, since they are probably a tad busy right now.

[joncnunn]

Well, I've always gotten Fuedalism, Nationalism, and Rockety as the free techs as Scientfic.

(I have always reserached one of Monarchy / Republic and traded for the other when playing a scientific civ prior to finishing the last required tech for the ancient era.)

[Catt]

In a spoiler thread to a CFC GOTM, Mike B. of Firaxis recently took the time to post a partial answer to the questions posed by this thread. Looks like change may be on the way in the next patch in any event!

Thanks to Yndy for directing my attention to the Mike B post (I would never have seen it otherwise).

Originally posted by Mike B. of Firaxis at CFC

Basically, it's a result of the algorithm used to randomly select an available tech. It's unintentionally heavily weighted towards the available tech that appears first in the list of techs (in the editor). It is supposed to select, at random, one tech from the new era that is available to the player (i.e., it has no prerequisites).

As an example, with unmodded rules you have the following available techs in the modern era with these approximate chances of being received:
91% Rocketry
1% Fission
1% Computers
7% Ecology

As you can see, Rocketry is heavily favored (simply because of it's placement within the list). This is unintentional and all 4 techs should have an equal chance of being selected. I will look into improving this for the next PTW patch.


__________________
Mike Breitkreutz
Lead Programmer, PTW
FIRAXIS Games