How make Republic pay off?

[Catt]

Originally posted by planetfall
Sorry ran out of time, but forgot and relearning some important play concepts: [. . . . ]

Remember not to fall into the trap of thinking there are absolute hard and fast rules for all games and all game situations. The most important human advantage is to think and plan, taking into account all available information. A thorough knowledge of game concepts and how they interplay may generate a number of rules of thumb - but rules of thumb should never replace analytical thought.

Just one recent example - in my previous post I stated that "I still play in your former mode of 'Get to Republic ASAP' unless compelling, and unusual, circumstances exist to cause me to reconsider" -- my most recent game I experienced what I thought were both unusual and compelling circumstances, and I decided to consciously shoot for Monarchy over Republic, even though the propspect of war (and therefore war weariness) was essentially nil -- I'm not sure it was the right decision, mind you , but it was an example of departing from a rule of thumb.

Catt

[planetfall]

Catt--

Agreed. Still learning. I had never stayed in Monarchy long, so was interested in expereincing game play if delayed migration to Republic. The concept is "Match government type and FP/Palace location to current game situation". The decision to stay Monarch was based on game play at beginning of China war, and in retrospect was not best decision to stick with for 80 turns. I remembered decision but forgot to regularly evaluate my decision based on game play. That's whay I am now in Republic.

What was shocking about corruption research today was:
1. Forget editor, corruption rates for Monarchy and Republic are identical. Even though Republic is supposed to have less corruption than Monarchy.
2. if run with corruption edited to 100%, you need to very carefully decide on the OCN to use as when you get about 150% above the OCN, your corruption will stay about 95%, regardless of courthouses etc.
3. Unverified, but sounds like editing additional improvements, i.e. cathedrals, to "reduce corruption" may not have any effect at all.

--PF

[planetfall]

Decided not to post this game. I made too many mistakes. On end of game play:

1550 bc - cities
china 6
Rome 5
Russia 4
others 3

1200bc
China 8
Rome 5
Russia 5
Greece 6
Germany 5

1000bc
China 8
Rome 7
Greece 7
Russia 6
Germany 5
Eng 4

450bc
China 14
Greece 10
Rome 10
Russia 9
Germany 8
Eng 6

10ad
China 17
Greece 12
Rome 13
Russia 9
German 13
Eng 7

So to answer my own question, what were mistakes:

1. Too slow city development. How is China getting so many cities so fast?

2. Undecided if go for horsemen rush or builder and so stuck in nowhere land.

3. Cities too big before switch to republic so require more infrastructure.

4. ONC was 24. {May be default but much lower than 40 used to playing}.

5. Trying to build settler farms of size 5-6 cities. Do pump out settlers faster, but time to get set up hurts too much.

-- PF

[BillChin]

Originally posted by planetfall
10ad
China 17
Greece 12
Rome 13
Russia 9
German 13
Eng 7

So to answer my own question, what were mistakes:

1. Too slow city development. How is China getting so many cities so fast?

2. Undecided if go for horsemen rush or builder and so stuck in nowhere land.

3. Cities too big before switch to republic so require more infrastructure.

4. ONC was 24. {May be default but much lower than 40 used to playing}.

5. Trying to build settler farms of size 5-6 cities. Do pump out settlers faster, but time to get set up hurts too much.

-- PF

1) 17 cities by 10 A. D. is not that many. The odds are that the map is mostly settled by now. It may be the luck of the land, good terrain, a free settler from a hut, war between other neighbors.

2) It is generally a good idea to decide fairly early upon war or expansion. For expansion a granary in the capital or the first colony city helps a great deal. On Regent level 600 B. C. is a decent time for attacking with swordsmen, at 10 A. D. a force of 20 attackers is decent, with a mix of horsemen and swordsmen. Around 600 A. D. is a decent timetable for attacking with Knights. Again, these times are for Regent, on higher levels, move the timetable up.

3) Not much you can do. Maybe waiting until marketplaces are built before switching helps. Many players skip Monarchy and go straight to Republic, especially if an early war is not in the play book.

4) No comment.

5) Having a lot of settler farms late may help where there is a lot of open land. However, in this game the map seems full with the player having 13 cities. A single granary in the capital can usually crank out 12 settlers before you set up these additional cities, so it is not recommended.

* The game looks winnable. You are in second or third coming into the A. D. years. This can be common on higher difficulty levels, depending on your style of play.
- Bill

[planetfall]

Originally posted by BillChin


1) 17 cities by 10 A. D. is not that many. The odds are that the map is mostly settled by now. It may be the luck of the land, good terrain, a free settler from a hut, war between other neighbors.

In followup game they are also ahead in cities, but only by 5-6 and that seems reasonable.

2) It is generally a good idea to decide fairly early upon war or expansion. For expansion a granary in the capital or the first colony city helps a great deal. On Regent level 600 B. C. is a decent time for attacking with swordsmen, at 10 A. D. a force of 20 attackers is decent, with a mix of horsemen and swordsmen. Around 600 A. D. is a decent timetable for attacking with Knights. Again, these times are for Regent, on higher levels, move the timetable up.

Thanks for the measuring points, they match my experience.

3) Not much you can do. Maybe waiting until marketplaces are built before switching helps. Many players skip Monarchy and go straight to Republic, especially if an early war is not in the play book.

Current game cities were kept small so able to switch and build marketplaces as needed. I just finished ancient era. Yes I should have skipped Monarchy.

4) No comment.

I understand. At least corruption is back to 100% instead of lower. Working on balance between expansion and military and government now. Will go back to corruption later.

5) Having a lot of settler farms late may help where there is a lot of open land. However, in this game the map seems full with the player having 13 cities. A single granary in the capital can usually crank out 12 settlers before you set up these additional cities, so it is not recommended.

Makes sense

* The game looks winnable. You are in second or third coming into the A. D. years. This can be common on higher difficulty levels, depending on your style of play.
- Bill

It was. I am normally 2..4th in AD and only pull ahead in late industrial or early modern.

I really appreciate your advice. Thanks again.

-- PF

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by planetfall


5. Trying to build settler farms of size 5-6 cities. Do pump out settlers faster, but time to get set up hurts too much.

-- PF

Thats only usefull after the start if ever. You should kick out a settler from your first city the within in or two turns of that city hiting a pop of three. I have tried going to four and that was just a waste of time. More population means you will get settlers a bit faster from the city but it wastes a lot of time getting there when you could have had TWO cities pumping out settlers and money for tech.

Don't wait till the population hits three to start a settler. Start it as soon as you can reach three the turn the settler will be produced or maybe just before or after. After is better than before most of the time because before wastes shields and they all count at the start of the game.

[planetfall]

Ethelred--
Good info. I was vascillating between size 3-4 for settlers production. Size 4 seem a bit better in production rate but takes 1 turn longer to get there.

What I have been trying is
city1-- size 3 -> settler
city2-- size 3 ->settler
city3-- size 4 ->settler

Actually I may have build order wrong. My standard build order is:
1. worker
2. warrior
3. settler {if possible}


BillChin
Maybe I am missing something basic. As I reread your post are you trying to tell me that at Regent and above you need a military campaign before 600AD?

-- PF

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by planetfall

Actually I may have build order wrong. My standard build order is:
1. worker
2. warrior
3. settler {if possible}

-- PF

The worker is a big mistake especialy if you are doing that with your first city. You allready have a worker at that point and it only needs to improve two tiles for you to get settlers out at pop 3, three tiles if you go for pop 4. It costs all that time it took to get your pop up enough to produce the worker your don't yet need and it costs you all the goody huts a warrior could have found.

I do this

Warrior
Warrior
Warrior - if I have food bonus tile I may go for a settler at that point. On Emperor you must have at least one unit for military police duty and you have to watch out for civil disorder real carefully.

That first warrior goes out and explores. The second will to if I don't need a MP yet but that is for Monarch on down not for Emperor and the same should go for deity but I haven't played Deity. Normally its three warriors and then the first settler. Then another warrior to defend the new city or a barracks while the cities pop comes back up enough to produce a second settler.

I do usually play industrious civs but even when I don't I still wait a bit to produce a worker. They are needed especially with a non-industrious civ but they can wait till the capital has produced at least two settlers.

[planetfall]

Ethelred,

Good catch. I mis spoke. Standard build order is for 2nd city plus. For first city it is:
warrior {for exploration}
warrior {for exploration}
warrior/settler {if warrior for happiness}
settler/worker {settler if warrior previous, worker to connect cities} then for about 5 rounds:

military/improvement
settler

Improvements are only temple/barracks/granary. Everything else must wait. Barracks in first city always. Temple if bonus tiles and size is jumping to 4 or 5. Granary after 3 to 4 cities.

Good idea to wait for second worker after created 2 settlers.

-- PF

[BillChin]

Originally posted by planetfall

BillChin
Maybe I am missing something basic. As I reread your post are you trying to tell me that at Regent and above you need a military campaign before 600AD?

-- PF

NEED? No. There are many ways to win the game, many ways to enjoy the game. However, if conquest is the idea from the get-go it is often best to attack early. You may be able to find some of my old posts outlining opening conquest strategies. If not here are the basic outlines:

1) Warrior Gambit, decent on Regent, tough on Monarch, not recommended for Emperor. Send first two warriors together looking for an enemy city or settler to capture.

2) Swordsmen Conquest, good for all levels, but much tougher to pull off on Deity. Research Bronze, then Iron. Build 3 to 6 cities depending on map size and enemies. Build bunches of warriors. Barracks help, must have at least one to upgrade units. Turn down research after getting Iron Working to save gold. Hook up iron, upgrade warriors to swordsmen. Attack nearest enemy. (10 swordsmen suggested for novices.) If no iron use archers.

3) Combined arms, better for large maps where enemies are not so close. Build 8 to 15 cities. Build an attack force of about 20 units, mixed swordsmen and horsemen. Catapults help, especially if attacking Legionaires or Hoplites.

4) Knight Blitz, good for huge maps, or other situations with a lot of open land. Takes a bit of practice for novices to get the units, tech and gold all in place at the same time. Basic strategy is to build 10 to 20 cities. Build a large force of horsemen. Get Chivalry as cheaply as possible. Upgrade the horsemen to Knights. Attack in force. 20 Knights or more is recommended. At 80 gold per unit upgrade that is a lot of gold.

There are also conquest strategies in between these, such as attacking with five archers. The latter three openings are effective conquest openings at Emperor level and below, with Warrior Gambit being weak vs. the free units defending at that level.
- Bill

[planetfall]

BillChin--
Thanks.

I usually play std map and 5-7 civs with increased distance as normal setting allowed too easy conquest.

Thus, warrior gambit is out. If it is not the Romans, I go with combined rush. I haven't been able to get knights working because of 1) 1700 gold required and 2) closeness of cavalry.

But, going to try knights just for the fun of it. Because I missed in current game choice is either go back and replay or try with infantry. Inclination now is to try both so I can a real game comparision.



Later.

--PF