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  • #1

    Too Many Cities?


    A solution to the many cities in the game allowing a civ to win because of excessive
    production capacity.

    Say your civ has 100 cities. Thus he should require 75 courthouses or 75% law and order
    to keep the people from running amock. If he does not build the courthouses then the
    cities would suffer production problems. Say they would not produce at all if there were
    only 10 courthouses or 10%. And would produce at 1/4 capacity if there were 25 courthouses,
    25% (Labor Riots) and so on...

    Are there any ideas on this?
    -->Visit CGN!
    -->"Production! More Production! Production creates Wealth! Production creates more Jobs!"-Wendell Willkie -1944
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  • #2
    *Bump!*
    -->Visit CGN!
    -->"Production! More Production! Production creates Wealth! Production creates more Jobs!"-Wendell Willkie -1944

    Comment

    • #3
      Lot of cities, lot of production, lot of money, lot of "hurry up production"...

      I'm not sure your proposal will solve all this mess, anyway you ask for comments and I'm here ready for the job

      You related plain number of cities to needs for infrastructure, still you tell too much production is the problem with large empire.

      I know a long debated problem (ICS threads) is the added production of the city square, so that every one pop. city works two squares. I leave this to other clever suggestions lot of players did in the past.
      OTOH, if you think great production is a problem, you must relate solution to the production itself.
      Actually, if citizen growth they grow unhappiness too, and you must cope with this (with temple, wonders, military units and the like), while the raise of production affects pollution.

      I think that a very large production, while resulting also in global warming and pollution on the medium/long term, must have different short term effects on population too.

      Building of Factories and Mfg.plants (i.e. industrialization) should mean immigration from farms to cities, born of commuting, cultural and social effects as unemployement, raise of crime, etc.

      So CivIII should relate "shields" production, Government choices (SMAC S.E.) and efficiency, forcing a player that try to raise production to full develop cities too (building courthouses, police stations/fire depts, highways/undergrounds), to balance pro and cons.

      Are we on the same line?


      ------------------
      Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant
      "We are reducing all the complexity of billions of people over 6000 years into a Civ box. Let me say: That's not only a PkZip effort....it's a real 'picture to Jpeg heavy loss in translation' kind of thing."
       - Admiral Naismith

      Comment

      • #4
        An idea for production being reduced is to make the citizen get
        gradually less skilled. Say they have a skill rating of being able
        to do any profession (be versitile) that rates 1-100 with 100 being
        completly incompetent at anything other than their profession.

        1. Most people are unskilled citizens... Every 5 turns their Skill
        Rating (SR) goes down by 1. When it reaches 50 their productivity is
        quartered to 3/4 of maximum due to crime and less motivation; their parents
        were factory workers so they will inevitably be as well. When the SR
        reaches 25 then their productivity is halved to 1/2 and will go no lower.

        2. When the unskilled citizens SR reaches 50 that is the last time you
        can automatically convert to an entertainer or taxman. (75 is the last
        time they can auto-convert to a scientist)
        For scientists when the SR is 50 then it will take 3 turns to train
        a person or his/her descendants to be a scientist. When it is 25 or
        lower it will take 8 turns.
        For taxmen/entertainers when the SR is 50 it will take 3 turns to train
        a person to be a t/e. When it is 0 or lower it will take 8 turns.

        3. Skill Ratings can be increased by building schools and libraries which
        increase each citizens skill rating by one per turn. However you need teachers
        to start off with and you can only acquire teachers for schools if you have
        a SR of 75 to start off with. The only way to raise the SR is to make citizens
        scientists (SR 100)/taxmen (SR 90)/entertainers (SR 80) and thus sacrifice
        productivity.


        Quote Lines:
        ------------------------------
        --So you want to be a hero...
        --Something wicked this way comes...
        --Farenheit 451... Whew that's hot!
        --Settler- From NONE, Chieftan- of Peril, Warlord- of the Ring, Prince- of Persia, Emperor- of Evil, Deity- of too much time on ones hands...
        -->Visit CGN!
        -->"Production! More Production! Production creates Wealth! Production creates more Jobs!"-Wendell Willkie -1944

        Comment

        • #5
          Hmm, new skills are required by tech advance: it's not that workers become dumber, it's that new production techs need more training.

          If you keep using old, know tech your production don't drop, if not because you end natural resources (e.g. coal or silk) or the soil become exahusted (e.g. no use of fertilizer and crop rotation).

          If you are forced to introduce new production methods, you may have some trouble (re-training,retooling, etc.).

          I think that your fixed number of turn must be remodelled keeping in account the rate of new tech improvements: you are introducing a new advance, you must pay for prototyping (as in SMAC) but also have some price to pay for every production center (cities) you convert to the new job. As you proposed, that "price" (turn delay) can be lessened by the city developement level (universities, libraries, etc.).

          As you wanted, now a large empire must take its time to mass produce a new item (supposing we can also avoid the "cheat" of rush build by excessive amount of money).

          I still keep my opinion about needs of some more attention to short term effects of mass production on population (crime, immigration etc.)

          Anyone else like to join with fresh opinion?

          ------------------
          Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant
          "We are reducing all the complexity of billions of people over 6000 years into a Civ box. Let me say: That's not only a PkZip effort....it's a real 'picture to Jpeg heavy loss in translation' kind of thing."
           - Admiral Naismith

          Comment

          • #6
            Why is it necessary to handicap large/productive emipres? It's only logical they should be much more powerful. But the ICS thing is a problem of course...
            [This message has been edited by Dr.Oogkloot (edited September 11, 2000).]

            Comment

            • #7
              Dr.Oogkloot, ICS is the main problem, but generally speaking the actual production model is so simple it give too much advantage to large empire.
              Because AI apparently has more trouble coping with a large (human) civ, when too many cities are owned by human player, ther is non way to challenge him/her any longer.

              So, for the sake of a better, longer game, we are trying to add some kind of "brake" to the unstoppable production model of large but underdeveloped empire.

              ------------------
              Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant
              [This message has been edited by Adm.Naismith (edited September 12, 2000).]
              "We are reducing all the complexity of billions of people over 6000 years into a Civ box. Let me say: That's not only a PkZip effort....it's a real 'picture to Jpeg heavy loss in translation' kind of thing."
               - Admiral Naismith

              Comment

              • #8
                So, how about this: each new city starts out as a Village, which can merely work the central tile and remains at size 1. Only after a Town Hall has been built, the Village becomes a Town with the ability to grow and to work the other tiles.

                ------------------
                If you have no feet, don't walk on fire
                A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ...
                Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute

                Comment

                • #9
                  That sounds quite a bit like Warcraft, however the idea is sound.
                  -->Visit CGN!
                  -->"Production! More Production! Production creates Wealth! Production creates more Jobs!"-Wendell Willkie -1944

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