The Communist Problem

[Christantine The Great]

I Have Returned!

I believe that the biggest problem in the government part of the game is Communism. In Civ II it was represented in its true form. This has never been the case in the real world.

What do we ask Firaxis to do? Leave it alone or make it into the corrupt form of government of the real world?

Also if Firaxis leaves Communism alone then why do we say that it should be easier to go to Republic or Democracy from Communism. Communism is making everyone happy so why would they want a rich-poor gap to suddenly open up? Freedom doesn't always mean comfort.





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"Adorare Christantine!!!"
Republican Decree #1

[Woodmen Chief]

In real life corruption is completely unknown in every democratic state. Communism must be made a rotten and completely corrupt form of government in the game so no one wants to use it. Democracy is as realistic as it can get.

[Az]

how about that . the degree of the success of communism depends of some factor that marks the devotion rate to the state .

anyway there is corruption in ALL goverments!

YES ALL ! unless you think that accepting money during a prestident candidacy is OK .



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Prepare to Land !

[Ari Rahikkala]

Woodman Chief: Tervehdys, metsäläisten päällikkö! Suomalaisia tulee nopeammin kuin sieniä sateella.

The thread: Utopian communism has no corruption, that's for sure. The problem is that utopian communism must be separated from other governments. Socialism has a helluva lot of corruption, as you all know.

[Napoleon I]

Well, it is my belief that Civ is a game that is based on certain abstractions and does not intend to simulate history. Therefore there should be no reason why the governments in Civ3 would be based on the real world.
After all, population doesn't grow from a surplus of food, and science is not produced from trade. Nevertheless, if those concepts are abstracted so should be the governments.

All of Civ's governments are a certain idea that is based roughly on the theories of these governments that exist. Therefore, I see no reason to introduce corrupted communism. After all we do introduce corrupted monarchy or perhaps corrupted republic.

A useful idea, however, is to have the government affect a civ over a period of time, for example, in a democracy, another trade arrow is added every 50 turns that there is a democracy. This could apply in some way to all the governments.

Tell me what you think of that idea.

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Napoleon I

[Christantine The Great]

I like your idea Napoleon but governments don't keep getting better and better.

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"Adorare Christantine!!!"
Republican Decree #1

[Ari Rahikkala]

... And it is a BAD idea to have constant times at which government bonuses/penalties change...

... And governments may just become better and better if you keep on building infrastructure, the happiness of the people could affect how the government values change...

[CornMaster]

quote: Originally posted by Woodmen Chief on 07-18-2000 03:02 PM In real life corruption is completely unknown in every democratic state. Communism must be made a rotten and completely corrupt form of government in the game so no one wants to use it. Democracy is as realistic as it can get.

Ok I started this post and then my browser crashed. I had a very detailed response to this. Now I will have to try it from memory.


First Communism isn't a rotten form of government. And furthermore it isn't a government type at all rather an economic model. Democracy is a government type and captailism is usually it's economic model. What I'm trying to say is that you can have a Democratic, Communist government. The people would elect a government that took control of the economy of the country.

Now I must say that I am a Communist. I feel it is the best type of economy. Now if your thinking of Communism as Soviet style communism your not seeing Communism for what it really is. Athough Russia was called a Communist nation it was really a dictatorship which was headed by a sick, paranoid ruler (Stalin).

Now I know what your going to say now, "Russians didn't have the basic nessesities or basic freedoms." And I say the reason they didn't have these is because every Democratic, Captialist nation was preforming acts against the Soviet Union, like spying and sabatoge, which forced the Soviets to take a defensive position to the world. Almost every nation was trying to kill Communism therefore the Communists had to build up arms against the world to avoid not being crushed. This in turn caused most of their production to be military based taking away from the consumer goods production. What I'm saying is that the Russians had little freedoms because they were in constant threat of being invaded and destroyed. And eventually were. But the cause of the corruption and hardships in the Russian Empire were caused by outside Captialist nations.

Anyway back to Civ 3. Communism as a Government model shouldn't be changed or it should be made better so that it is the ultimate government type. Which I feel Civ 2 portraits Democracy as the ultimate government type.

Now if Civ 3 were to include economic models such as Captailism, Communism, Barter System, etc... I would mind. But then the government would have to be called Socialism, and you could have more like Constitutional Monarchy, Facisim, etc...

Anyway I'm probably stepped on some patriotic American toes now.

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"I'm too out of shape for a long fight so I'll have to kill you fast"
"If the great Emperors of Rome, Egypt and Greece were alive today, do you think they would prefer Coke or Pepsi?"
[This message has been edited by CornMaster (edited July 18, 2000).]

[Par4]

As I said in another thread there needs to be a reason.

Obviously a country that is in a prime spot for commercialism and trade won't become communist. A state that has had a weak republic that hurt the economy, lost many units in a war, lost the war, won't want a democracy. Common listen to the people a little!!!

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King Par4!!

There is no spoon
-The Matrix
Let's kick it up a notch!!
-Emeril Lagasse
Fresh Soy makes Tofu so silky
-Ming Tsai

[Comrade Dan]

Entirely depends on what 'flavour' of communism you want - utopian or Stalinistic.

[Michael Dnes]

Here's my two roubles on early communism:
War communism- during the civil war the communists took half of the harvest, and gave rations to all. Since the rations depended on how much work you did it mainly went to the workers. The intelligensia only had money, which rapidly became useless. Docters, teachers et al starved. The historic libraries of aristocrats were burnt for fuel. The palaces of the rich were burnt to keep warm. Grand pianos could be bought for practically nothing. I believe this is the closest anyone got to true communism. No corruption, but horrendos innefficiency.
New Economic Policy (NEP)- This was instituted to repair the damage done by war communism. The NEP centred on various free market reforms, allowing property and business for profit. The economy soared and 'nepmen' became rich. The people did not like it, but it worked.

I think modern governments should have ineffiency, not corruption. It would make more sense.

[Woodmen Chief]

Relax, CornMaster! My post was sarcastic. I'm a communist, too. An utopian communist. I hate what Soviet Union and China have done. They have made the world think communism in it's real form is corrupt, which isn't true. I also think socialism should be included in the game and that it should be the ultimate society. Anyway, I suppose most of the coders of the game are American, so...

[Comrade Dan]

hey! We didn't screw it up! it's not my fault that Marx's theories disagree with human nature! We did the best we could with what we had!

[Evil Capitalist]

Since this thread is crawling with commies I'm going to insult Marx.
His economic theories are based on the assumption that all manufatured goods are worth the cost of the raw materials and the cost of the labour and, since there is profit, the workers are being deprived of what is rightfully theirs. He ignores the neccessity of management and product development, which is the profit.
*ducks to avoid tirade of red abuse*

[CornMaster]

quote: Originally posted by Woodmen Chief on 07-19-2000 05:39 PM Anyway, I suppose most of the coders of the game are American, so...

Sorry for going overboard but there are so may ignorant Americans that think Communism is bad and evil. (By the way I'm from Canada. I only moved to the states 2 months ago.) And that Russia is the worst place in the world to live.

When I hear comments like that it just throws me into action. Really I'm a shy, private person but on the internet it's a whole new ballgame.


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"I'm too out of shape for a long fight so I'll have to kill you fast"
"If the great Emperors of Rome, Egypt and Greece were alive today, do you think they would prefer Coke or Pepsi?"