The dangerous sea...

[Hagbart]

What are the odds of losing a coast-ship (a galley) in the sea/ocean and a sea-ship in the ocean? It seems strange that sometimes my ships can survive 4-5 turns on the ocean before sinking , sometimes they sink instantly.

[Arrian]

I think it's something like a 50% chance of sinking in a type of water they are not suited for (whether it's sea or ocean). Like all other things in the game, it's hooked up to the RNG, which is why sometimes you will hit a lucky streak that allows a galley to make it across a large ocean whereas the previous 3 sank immediately.

-Arrian

[N. Machiavelli]

Which brings up a question. Does the AI have knowledge of the Random Number sequence? If so, it would explain why the AI can send galleys (prior to anyone discovering the appropriatt tech) into ocean/sea squares. While not as blatant a 'cheat' as previously ranted, it would prove a bit of an advantage to the AI if it knows whether or not it would succeed before hand.

[Arrian]

Actually, I've never seen the AI end their turn with galleys in sea/ocean squares without the appropriate tech. They will, however, find short crossings (1-2 tiles of sea or ocean, with coast available at either side) which allow them to safely island-hop. They tend to find these quickly, because they are programmed to explore like crazy.

I've often gotten a defeated civ's world map. Pre-astronomy, you will seen that their scout ships will have circled the continent, but have not ventured into the sea/ocean beyond... unless there is a short crossing available so that they didn't have to end their turn in dangerous waters.

-Arrian

[N. Machiavelli]

I've encountered it a couple of times before, usually with galleys on sea squares more so than on ocean. It's certainly not as regular an occurance as some others have claimed, but it does happen.

In any case, I just figured that if the AI has access to knowledge of the placement of all units on the map, it may very well have 'prior' knowledge of the random number string when considering it's moves.

[Minmaster]

u mean does the AI know his galley has chance of sinking?

[Bleyn]

If the RNG function is a good one, it shouldn't have prior knowledge. In fact, if the AI is properly programmed, even at the hardest levels, the programmers should not be having to resort to such simplistic cheats to help the AI.

[Thrawn05]

If the AI had access to the RNG, then it would NOT just be limited to galleys. This would also apply to combat as well. The AI would know when to attack so that it would get the highest chance possible.

I havn't seen any threads of people complaining about that (this is not related to the Tank v Spearman rampage), so I will have to say that Firaxis did their job right, and locked the RNG away from at least the core AI code.

[N. Machiavelli]

"Artificial Intellegence" is *not* intellegence as we humans use it. Instead, it's a series of scripts and "if" statements. AI is limited by those who program it and it's 'sophistication' is limited to the sheer amount of possible scenarios pre-programmed into it. When the AI makes a move, it gathers all it's "known" data (unit placement, number of units, goals, etc) and makes a 'decision' (i.e. "If I have 3 swordsmen and I know the enemy has 8, then switch production in X city to Swordsman") based upon that. It does this because the programmers gave it specific priorities and told the AI to build more swordsmen if it has less then the enemy.

Now, since the AI *must* have information such as number/position of every unit on the map (since programming 'unknowns'/speculation requires an untold number of pre-thought out algorythems), then would it be such a leap to think that the AI incorporates the terrain in it's 'decision making'?
If so, then does the AI incorporate the Random Number sequence in it's movement decisions? Did the programmers tell the AI (when deciding to move it's galley) "if the random number string is 50%+, then move galley to explore ocean/sea tiles. After all, it 'knows' that it will make it safely into those tiles, and if the same check fails next turn, it can safely move back to the coastline.

If this is true, then does such a knowledge pose as a 'cheat' for the AI? Like the AI's knowledge of unit placement, I personally don't look at it as a 'cheat' so much as a 'crutch' to help get past the limitations posed when attempting to program an in-depth AI for Civ3.

[N. Machiavelli]

Originally posted by Thrawn05
If the AI had access to the RNG, then it would NOT just be limited to galleys. This would also apply to combat as well. The AI would know when to attack so that it would get the highest chance possible.

While it's possible, I do not feel that if the AI has access to the RNG for movement, it must have it for combat. The script for the movement and script for combat are mutually exclusive (unless Firaxis was *really* skimping on the time and budget). Writing a line calling for a RNG check in one script doe not automatically include it in another.

Originally posted by Thrawn05
I havn't seen any threads of people complaining about that (this is not related to the Tank v Spearman rampage), so I will have to say that Firaxis did their job right, and locked the RNG away from at least the core AI code.

Just because Coracle hasn't complained about it yet doesn't mean it isn't a future issue. Folks in the 18th century weren't concerned about a pollution-caused holein the Ozone layer, but that doesn't mean it's not an issue.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by N. Machiavelli
If so, then does the AI incorporate the Random Number sequence in it's movement decisions? Did the programmers tell the AI (when deciding to move it's galley) "if the random number string is 50%+, then move galley to explore ocean/sea tiles. After all, it 'knows' that it will make it safely into those tiles, and if the same check fails next turn, it can safely move back to the coastline.

I would hope not the AI has access to this. I don't think this is one program cheat the AI needs. At least for galleys anyway. I can understand maps and unit positions (which is only half true, the core AI doens't know either, it's "limited", since if I sell my maps to the AI is send hordes of settlers over, and it wound't have bothered with spy missions).

The RNG should be completly independent from both player and AI. What I would do is force a rule with galleys like this (crude C++)

void somegalleyfunction()
{

if (nexttile == (sea || ocean)
{
searchnewtile();
}
else
{
movetonexttile();
}

}

[N. Machiavelli]

Oh, I agree that the AI *should* not be able to 'conciously' access this information, but what I fear is that, in Firaxis' quest to make the AI more competative, it gave it access to the RNG variable strings on certain functions. Now, the AI is 'evolving' seemingly with every patch, since the Firaxis programmers now have much more time to sophisticate the AI commands without resorting to such things. So even if they gave this 'ability' to the AI, limited or otherwise, it may not survive an eventual patch.

[Jaybe]

Is someone trying to make Soren (I THINK it was him) a liar?
He definitely said that galleys do not end their turn in a sea or ocean tile unless they have the tech which enables them to do so SAFELY.

Remember, Astronomy allows ALL your ships to travel the sea, Navigation allows ALL your ships to travel the ocean. Galleys included. Lighthouse effects are additional.

In Civ2 you had to upgrade your ship to do this, and (gad, this is getting old), Civ2 it ain't!

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by N. Machiavelli
Oh, I agree that the AI *should* not be able to 'conciously' access this information, but what I fear is that, in Firaxis' quest to make the AI more competative, it gave it access to the RNG variable strings on certain functions.

This is certainly NOT true. That statement is in fact ridiculous if you think about it. The AI has NO chance of knowing what the RNG will be. Remember, sinking is not determined when you enter the sea/ocean tile, but JUST BEFORE your next movement turn. Even if the AI knew exactly ALL random numbers coming up, it would have to know IN ADVANCE all AI moves, human moves as well as the exact result of the combats and diplomacy that happens after it ends its turn and before it begins its next.

As you can see, while the AI in theory could know which RNG numbers are coming up, it has no way of knowing which one of those will be used to determine if the Galley sinks or not.

Besides, I have never seen (either myself or in any forum) any evidence that the AI would risk its Galleys in dangerous waters.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Jaybe
Is someone trying to make Soren (I THINK it was him) a liar?
He definitely said that galleys do not end their turn in a sea or ocean tile unless they have the tech which enables them to do so SAFELY.

Remember, Astronomy allows ALL your ships to travel the sea, Navigation allows ALL your ships to travel the ocean. Galleys included. Lighthouse effects are additional.

In Civ2 you had to upgrade your ship to do this, and (gad, this is getting old), Civ2 it ain't!

As someone else posted recently . . . Call a Vet! Call a Vet! We've got a dead horse here and someone continues to beat it senselessly!

I quoted the above from Jaybe just to highlight it again for those who have missed it in the past -- in response to a recent "AI CHEATS!" thread, I did a quick search for posts by Soren involving the "AI galley can cross oceans" phenomenon - the poor guy (Soren) has been trying to debunk this myth since December - do a search - he has posted on this subject seemingly more than any other (what a shame!). He has stated on more than one occasion that the AI will not allow its galleys / caravels to end their turns in a square where there is a risk of loss - it just won't happen - if it happens, it's a bug; save a copy of the game. Despite the seeming weekly announcement that AI galleys routinely cross seas and oceans, no one, not one single person, has ever posted an unmodified game where this has happened prior to AI discovery of enabling technology.

To repeat Jaybe's point - this is not Civ 2 - galleys can safely traverse seas and oceans when the enabling tech is discovered. And yet the myth refuses to die.

Catt