The dangerous sea...

[Slax]

I have seen a ship can traverse un-traversable waters due to a withdrawal from territory, because there was no closer unowned tiles. I think the culture radius had changed that turn.

Its a very rare occurance, and could be considered a bug.

[Willem]

It also depends on your tech as well. If you have Navigation, any ship can cross the ocean.

[Hagbart]

Originally posted by Willem
It also depends on your tech as well. If you have Navigation, any ship can cross the ocean.

Ok thanks, I thought you'd have to build new ships after Navigation to sail safely on the ocean.

I do not think the AI cheats here. I don't think I've seen an AI sending galleys out on the ocean to explore. They stay along the coast.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by Hagbart
I do not think the AI cheats here. I don't think I've seen an AI sending galleys out on the ocean to explore. They stay along the coast.

Same here, but I have read threads from people who claim that galleys are traveling ocean squares long before middle age period. That's a bug and requires a uninstall/reinstall to fix it. I haven't come accross it yet.

[N. Machiavelli]

Originally posted by Hurricane

As you can see, while the AI in theory could know which RNG numbers are coming up, it has no way of knowing which one of those will be used to determine if the Galley sinks or not.

Sure it does. For one thing, the random number sequence, is exactly that: a sequence, or list of random numbers created at the begining of each 'turn'. Every command that refers to this sequence (i.e. the victor of a round of combat) takes the top number of that list, uses it, then removes that number from the list so that the next one can be used for the next command. For ease of programming, this top number can be referred to as a variable, so that whenever something needs to refer to that top number it just has to look for that variable, we'll call it "RNGTOP".

Now, the AI runs a seperate script of 'what to do' for each unit. All I'm saying is that for certain script sequences, there could be a reference to the RNGTOP variable as a check to see if the action will succeed. If so, then the AI carries out the script; if not, then the AI carries out another command for the unit. It's not really that complex. The AI already makes a reference to the positioning of units on the board. It has to in order to make it's movement decisions or else it would try to 'bump' into things or walk in a straight line to any goal, no matter where it is. It's also a given that the AI is knowledgible of settlers, workers, and open artillery units past it's line of sight, *and* figures this in it's attack decision-making; so it's really not a big leap to say that it already figures some things it 'shouldn't' know into it's decision-making.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not even saying that this is fact, or definate. But it does offer an explaination to justify why the AI end it's galley's or caravel's turns on ocean squares and seemingly suffer no illl-will. It's not that the AI's units are impervious, only that they will not perform the action unless it 'knows' it can succeed. If Soren or any of the other developers wish to tell me wrong, then great. I'm merely offering a hypothesis and reasoning to support it.

Originally posted by Catt

Despite the seeming weekly announcement that AI galleys routinely cross seas and oceans, no one, not one single person, has ever posted an unmodified game where this has happened prior to AI discovery of enabling technology.

The problem is that this is a bit of a difficult thing to prove deliberately, since it would require that you have a unit trail every AI's galley or caravel before the discovery of navigation or magnetism. Just because it doesn't occur with the couple that happen to stumble into your line of sight, doesn't mean it can't happen.
Besides, I don't know about you, but when I'm playing a Civ3 game, especially during war, one of the *last* things I'm worried about it making seperate saves of every seemingly 'odd' occurance in the possability that one day, it might come up and someone will automatically discount it because I didn't happen to save it when it occured a week prior.

[Catt]

Originally posted by N. Machiavelli

The problem is that this is a bit of a difficult thing to prove deliberately, since it would require that you have a unit trail every AI's galley or caravel before the discovery of navigation or magnetism. Just because it doesn't occur with the couple that happen to stumble into your line of sight, doesn't mean it can't happen.
Besides, I don't know about you, but when I'm playing a Civ3 game, especially during war, one of the *last* things I'm worried about it making seperate saves of every seemingly 'odd' occurance in the possability that one day, it might come up and someone will automatically discount it because I didn't happen to save it when it occured a week prior.

I don't disagree that it is difficult to prove -- you need to be in the right place at the right time (assuming it even ever happens ). And I certainly don't expect everyone to save the game at every turn -- but the seeming frequency with which this particular "cheat" is trumpeted would imply that it happens all the time - certainly someone can be bothered to save the game upon the sight of an ocean-going galley and / or load up autosave from the prior turn, save the game, play the turn, watch the occurence again, and then continue playing - I can't think that this is not too much to ask in the face of repeated denials from the game designers that the "cheat" is even possible?

Slax - I think I have seen that as well (can't remember clearly enough) and it would certainly seem to be within the "game rules" although I too think its a bug that ought to be fixed. I say it is "within the game rules" simply because the automatic withfdrawal function seems to move troops to the nearest available tile - regardles of whether the unit in question is capable of reaching that tile on its own (I have seen foot soldiers teleported across narrow stretches of sea and ocean to home territory). I say its a bug because the player making the "Leave" demand will often have no way of knowing the potential dire consequences of his action (and subsequent teleportation) -- all of a sudden the enemy has contact with the other continent!

Catt

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Catt


I don't disagree that it is difficult to prove -- you need to be in the right place at the right time (assuming it even ever happens ). And I certainly don't expect everyone to save the game at every turn -- but the seeming frequency with which this particular "cheat" is trumpeted would imply that it happens all the time - certainly someone can be bothered to save the game upon the sight of an ocean-going galley and / or load up autosave from the prior turn, save the game, play the turn, watch the occurence again, and then continue playing - I can't think that this is not too much to ask in the face of repeated denials from the game designers that the "cheat" is even possible?
Catt

You know very well that the reason the "cheat" keeps coming up this way is because the astonomy/navigation change from civ2 is not well publicized so people (like me) continually have to uncover the change in forums like this

[Wormwood]

If the AI has this supposed cheat, then why am I able to create a naval "blockade", along a coast with three or four ships, where the AI galley would have to end his turn in sea or ocean, and the AI will not try to get around it. They will tool around for 20+ plus turns, and never make that move.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by N. Machiavelli


Sure it does. For one thing, the random number sequence, is exactly that: a sequence, or list of random numbers created at the begining of each 'turn'.

Why do think that? There is no need for the game to do that. There is no good reason to it either. It is much more likely that the game calls the RNG routine ONLY when a RN is needed. Otherwise you would have to decide IN ADVANCE how many to generate each turn, set up and array to store them in, keep track of the pointer and then get fooled when the player decides not to attack.

All that is stored in the save files is a SEED not a sequence. The same seed will give the same sequence but the sequence cannot be predicted except by running the RNG itself.

Every command that refers to this sequence (i.e. the victor of a round of combat) takes the top number of that list, uses it, then removes that number from the list so that the next one can be used for the next command. For ease of programming, this top number can be referred to as a variable, so that whenever something needs to refer to that top number it just has to look for that variable, we'll call it "RNGTOP".

It could but why do something so wastefull.Its completely uneeded.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not even saying that this is fact, or definate.

Its pure speculation with no data to support it.

But it does offer an explaination to justify why the AI end it's galley's or caravel's turns on ocean squares and seemingly suffer no illl-will.

An uneeded explanation since NO ONE has shown it to ever happen and Soren has made it clear that it isn't supposed to happen.

It's not that the AI's units are impervious, only that they will not perform the action unless it 'knows' it can succeed. If Soren or any of the other developers wish to tell me wrong, then great. I'm merely offering a hypothesis and reasoning to support it.

A labrynthine hypothesis to explain a non-existent phenomana.

Besides, I don't know about you, but when I'm playing a Civ3 game, especially during war, one of the *last* things I'm worried about it making seperate saves of every seemingly 'odd' occurance in the possability that one day, it might come up and someone will automatically discount it because I didn't happen to save it when it occured a week prior.

Autosaves. Besides NO ONE has shown the alleged phenoma to be real in the entire time people have making the specious claim. Not once. The main source of this fantasy on Apolyton is Coracle. Not exactly what one could call a reliable source.

Where there is smoke there is often someone with a smoke pot and no fire at all. I think some people are using Canabis Oil for their smoke screens and forget to stay upwind.

[N. Machiavelli]

Originally posted by Ethelred

A labrynthine hypothesis to explain a non-existent phenomana.

Whatever; I've said my peace. Hope you feel more secure about yourself.

EDIT: Quote link.

[Ethelred]

I feel secure about what I said anyway. Thats good enough for here.

I still would like an answer as to why you think that Civ III would do something as strange as storing a sequence of random numbers when it so uneeded.

EDIT: Quote link.

What link?

You need to be a bit more specific. Are you asking for a link from me, if so then what kind of link are you looking for, or did you intend to supply one yourself?

[N. Machiavelli]

It's usually good form (manners) to note when one goes back and edits their post, so that it does not seem like the poster is going back to change what they said. I had to correct the "[/QUOTE]" link/tag because when I inititally typed it in, I forgot the "/".

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by N. Machiavelli
I've encountered it a couple of times before, usually with galleys on sea squares more so than on ocean. It's certainly not as regular an occurance as some others have claimed, but it does happen.

In any case, I just figured that if the AI has access to knowledge of the placement of all units on the map, it may very well have 'prior' knowledge of the random number string when considering it's moves.

the only time the AI will ever have a gally end its turn in a sea or ocean square is if it has the tech which allows it to do so without risk of sinking (Astronomy for sea; Navigation/Magnetism for ocean)...

maybe I should add this to my sig?

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis
...
maybe I should add this to my sig?

Soren, please don't. This issue is already quite well known (especially now). Please put some OTHER (new) gem in your sig!

Or a link to a post/thread of a whole basket of gems/tidbits!!
War Weariness (nudge, nudge)?

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis
the only time the AI will ever have a gally end its turn in a sea or ocean square is if it has the tech which allows it to do so without risk of sinking (Astronomy for sea; Navigation/Magnetism for ocean)...

So there is no AI fuction called: AmIFeelingLuckyThisTurn() ? Darn, I was hopping the AI would take a chance on the open sea/ocean just like the player.