fix civ2's tech tree

[The diplomat]

This has probably been said a thousand times already but there are a few glaring inconsistencies in the civ2 tech tree, that I think should be fixed for civ3:

It does not make sense to me that:

-"pottery" is a prereq for "seafaring"
-"engineering" gives King Richard's Crusade.
-"medicine" gives Shakespeare"s theatre.
-"communism" gives UN wonder
-"labor union" gives the mechanized infantry unit.
-"polytheism" gives elephant unit.
-"polytheism" is a prereq for "monotheism"
-"democracy" is prereq for "conscription"
-"automobile" gives battleship unit.

To fix these, you would need to rearrange things a bit, add a few new techs but it would not require anything radical.
For example, the tech "polytheism" should make the new SE option of polytheism available. The elephant unit would come with the "horseback riding" tech.
I would suggest a new tech entitled "theatre" which would grant the Shakespeare's theatre wonder. The tech "theatre" could have "literacy" and "philosophy" as its prereq.
The tech "medicine" instead could have the benefit of X% less chance of disease for the player that has the tech.

A lot of you probably think I am nitpicking, I just think civ3 will be more interesting if the techs make more sense.

Maybe, if we are really lucky, Firaxis is planning on a brand new tech tree for civ3. That would of course be better than just tweeking the tech tree of civ2!

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No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.
[This message has been edited by The diplomat (edited June 06, 2000).]

[OrangeSfwr]

Nitpicking? I think not. These are faults of Civ 2 that are underestimated and I'm glad you brought them up. This was discussed before and I'm going to try to remember some other faults that were pointed out with the tech tree...

Alphabet - prereq for mapmaking (Don't need letters to make a map. Especially primitive maps)
Code of Laws before writing? (How ya gonna write them down?)
Mapmaking give trieme? (You don't need to know how to make a map before you can float in a boat)

There's many more but I can't remember them now. Maybe I'll look for them later. I suggest Mech infantry comes from Automobile and Battleship comes from Steel along with Cruiser. Is that a correct solution?

On an added note: I think we should get rid of the Elephant. It's a pointless unit and real Elephants aren't the ideal fighting animal.

BTW: I agree with your statement about Polythiesm being the prereq for Monotheism. I belive the oldest religion was Monothiestic. Forget what it was called though...

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~
"Oh, they have the Internet on computers now!"

[Frugal_Gourmet]

Eh, once again I find myself saying that realism is overrated. If you want to get right down to it, you'd find that Civ is just fun way to simulate running a civilization without the slighest bit of realism at all. Never has had much true realism to the game.

But I suppose if you want to make the tech tree more palatable, you could do so easily. Alot of things you 2 say make sense.

However, I think alot of these units appear to approximate the actual time in history when they began to show up or be used: for instance, riflemen started to show up around the time of modern democray, battleships around the time of the automobile, etc.

Also, I disagree with a couple of things:

1) I think polytheism should definitely be a requirement monotheism. Scholars of religious history will tell you monotheism is the first religion of primitive cultures (the belief in an uncaring, all-powerful "sky god"), that develops into polytheism -- the belief in more human-like gods (a "storm god" fertilizing an "Earth goddess", etc). The pinnacle of religious developments, however, is modern monotheism -- the belief in an all-powerful God that also cares about mankind and (sometimes) posseses human-like characteristics (i.e., Christianity, Judaism). I think "monotheism" in the game refers to this sort of "modern" monotheism. Polytheism DEFINITELY preceeds "modern" monotheism as nearly no culture in history has gone straight from "primitive" monotheism to "modern" monotheism.

2) I think the alphabet should definitely be a prerequisite for mapmaking. While technically it's possible to make a primitive map without a system of characters, navigating the oceans would be a difficult task at best with such a map. In real history, the development of a system of characters was crucial in allowing ships to travel the seas.

3) The elephant is a cool unit, and it's use in military history was significant.

[UltraSonix]

Why are you guys even bothering about the tech tree?! I mean, I think this is an obvious area that Firaxis will fix up, but otherwise, I agree that some of Civ2's techs don't mesh together well.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

[OrangeSfwr]

Elephant - important in history??? I'd like something to back that up please...negate Hannibal.

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~
"Oh, they have the Internet on computers now!"

[Gameopolis]

It Does make Sense!

With Engineering, People better use the Land Creating King Richard's Crusade which increasing Sheild Production.

Communism is what the UN is againist, Thats why the UN was a Wonder after Communism is developed.

You must see how they are connected or you be lost.

[Urban Ranger]

FG,

I agree that polytheism is a prerequsite for monotheism.

Historically, the primitive tribes had all developed pantheism (a god/spirit in everything, but these gods or spirits are pretty much part of nature). Polytheism followed patheism and monotheism is the last rung on the ladder.

[Urban Ranger]

Gameopolis,

If you use "Engineering" in the sense of "a systematic way to construct or build things," then it has been in existence in a long, long time. I contend that you can't build anything such as the Colosus, the Great Wall, the Pyramids, etc. without engineering. So it doesn't make sense to have engineering as a prerequisite of King Richard's Crusade.

As for the UN, no, you are totally off. It is not an aparatus to fight communism, and had never been intended to do so. Otherwise, why did the USSR -- and later, the PRC -- become a permanent member of the Security Council?

[Urban Ranger]

Diplomat,

Some of these prerequisites do make sense.

Communism -> UN: Communism is not the idea itself but the rise of communistic states. This marks the modern era and thus a necessary condition for the UN.

Labor Union -> Mech Inf: the rise of Labor Union represents the advent of certain manufacturing practices, such as the assembly line. I reckon you can't have Mech Inf unless you civ is sufficiently industrialized.

Automobile -> Battleship: you can't run your battleships on steam now, can you?

[Spekter@Home]

Pottery being required for Seafaring actually makes perfect sense. You need some way of storing large quantities of fresh water and food if you're going to be travelling for any length of time on the ocean. Clay vessels work quite well for both as they can be corked and they are water tight.

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"We are all greater artists than we realize."
-Nietzsche

[The diplomat]

You guys do raise interesting points. And since I did not give my reasons against those prereq I mentionned, I guess it is time that I explain why I think that those prereq. should be changed.

I saw "seafaring" as the knowledge of building primitive boats and thus I did not see a direct connection between knowing how to build boats and knowing how to make pottery. However, spekter@home revealed a very good indirect connection.
It is true that you need pottery to store food and fresh water that you would absolutely need it if you were making a LONG journey by sea. What I suggest is this: keep "pottery" as a prereq for "seafaring" but make "mapmaking" give the explorer unit and the lighthouse, and have "seafaring" give the trireme unit and the harbor. I think that makes more sense.

I continue to oppose "enginnering" giving Richard's Crusade. If I remember my history correctly, King Richard's Crusade was where Richard sent an army to Jerusalem to destroy the Muslims because they were controlling the city and the king believed it was his "christian" duty to free the Holy City.
Now, "enginnering" is the science of planning a construction. I see no direct or indirect connection between the two!
What I propose, (I think it is a must) is that "enginneering" be somehow necessary before the player can build the Great Pyramids and the Great Walls. "masonry" is not sufficient. Those were huge feats of engineering! We have modern engineers today with computers trying to figure out how the Egyptians did it (source: Discovery Channel, History Channel)
I think that "engineering" should be a prereq for "construction".

The UN was not built because of communism. It was built because of WW2! The Allies believed after the war that they needed to form a multinational organization like the League of Nations but better, to solve crisises collectively. They believed the UN would prevent another Hitler and another World War. You don't need to know communism in order to build a UN. I suggest that "democracy" be a prereq for the UN, because the UN is a 'democratic' notion.

"Labor Union" is where workers come together to better represent their rights, and prevent exploitation. I don't see why you need to have unions to have a mechanized infantry unit. It should require a modern industry and a high level of military knowledge.

"polytheism" should not give the elephant unit. What is the connection between believing in many gods and riding an elephant?
"O Great Chief, we have learned something called polytheism!"
"What is polytheism?"
"It is the belief that there a several gods in the universe. We should worship all of them."
"Good faithful servant, that just gives me a great idea, see that elephant over there, we can ride it and attack our enemies!"
"horseback riding" should give the elephant unit.

No, a battleship does not run on steam. It would require combustion or better. But the player has "combustion" since it is a prereq. So, "combustion" should give the submarine and the battleship.

In closing, I don't think that the tech tree must make perfect sense. I cede that "polytheism" can be a prereq for "monotheism" and "pottery" to "seafaring, and any other link that mmakes sense. But whenever there are obvious inconsistencies, they should be fixed. "medicine" gving Shakespeare's theatre! I rest my case.


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No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.
[This message has been edited by The diplomat (edited June 08, 2000).]

[Ken Bregott]

Urban Ranger- Without Communism, there would have been no Cold War. Without the Cold War, the UN certainly wouldn't have been set up the way it was. I expect the same reasoning lies behind communism as a prequisite for the Spy unit.

[OrangeSfwr]

The UN was created with Communist members. It wasn't to fight Communism. Infact, it was made at the end of WWII and as Urban Ranger pointed out, it was made to prevent a third world war, not to defend or fight Communism. That's what Nato was for. Check your facts again...

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~
"Oh, they have the Internet on computers now!"
[This message has been edited by OrangeSfwr (edited June 08, 2000).]

[Par4]

hmmph everyone knows the pyramids were constructed by the altantians and the secrets of its construction is hidden deep under the front right paw of the sphinx

UN was to stop a nuclear war, end of story. NATO was founded to stop communism from flowing into western europe or something although it seems to have failed after communism fell. Go to europe, see the socialist regimes, and the historical venues.

Of course we all know communism created the UN to make a world government that was gradually turning socialist then twist it into stalinism. Its the truth, honest, yes honest, the truth yes...

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[Ken Bregott]

What I am trying to say is that communism, as a factor, was important in the basic structure of the UN. You see, the UN had to be set up in such a way as to always appease two different ideologies. Thus the arrangement with permanent members of the security council, for example. The League of Nations, created in a different era for a different power-balance, was very different in structure. What would the UN be like without the inclusion of the USSR?