Civ III Engine Proposal

[L o k i]

It's a scalable engine, so the more power your computer has, the better the game will look.

So in 5 years from now, I could have a 3ghz computer and a card that supports a zillion polygons, etc etc.

The game will then look 10 times better. It's a game that just gets better the more power it receives, even if the technology hasn't been discovered.

Yes, it will slow the computer to a crawl, but the game will still run smoothly.

The engines rule is to run at 15fps, So if the frame drops to 14fps, then it will lower the graphics a bit to bring it back to 15. Thats one of the main advantages to this scalable engine.

The game is now becoming so popular and important, that they're releasing it for PC, Playstation 2, Dreamcast, XBox, Linux and BeOS.

Hey, I'll give you a url to a video of it.
http://www.fileplanet.com/index.asp?...694&download=1

[L o k i]

I hope you don't mind me rubbing this in

"The visual is the most important medium to clearly communicate information with minimal chance of misinterpretation. Out of our five senses, we comprehend over 80% of the environment around us through our eyes. Not only does 3D cross over language barriers, but it provides a completely unique experience. Whether it is stunning gameplay or saving time to market, the time for the 3D revolution is upon us."

I didn't say it! nvidia did!

[yin26]

quote: Originally posted by L o k i on 05-22-2000 06:25 AMI didn't say it! nvidia did!

And nvidia sells what, exactly? 3D CARDS!!! What else did you expect them to say: "Most great games are, at their base, about solid gameplay and the minimum graphics required to ignite the imagination, and this means 2D is here to stay."

Don't buy the company line, Loki. If you personally love 3D and can't get enough, great. But many of us here were weaned on outstanding games with meager graphics, and while we would all like a better visual experience, we have learned that most beautiful games pretty much sucked after the first few days of play.

P.S. How does a computer slow to a crawl and still run the game smoothly? Slow to a crawl means exactly the opposite. By your definition, the computer never slows. Instead, the graphics get adjusted.

[L o k i]

Well, what I meant was, it will struggle to keep it running smoothly. And a 200 can do it.

[L o k i]

It is too late for Firaxis if they want to release it next year, but still, who knows what they've been up to..

[Urban Ranger]

quote: Originally posted by L o k i on 05-22-2000 06:25 AM I hope you don't mind me rubbing this in "The visual is the most important medium to clearly communicate information with minimal chance of misinterpretation. Out of our five senses, we comprehend over 80% of the environment around us through our eyes. Not only does 3D cross over language barriers, but it provides a completely unique experience. Whether it is stunning gameplay or saving time to market, the time for the 3D revolution is upon us." I didn't say it! nvidia did!

There is some truth is this, of course. However, 3D is not always applicable to every situation. For example, web browsers definitely don't need to be in 3D.

I also don't think 3D is suitable for a grand stretagy game such as Civ. For a game such as Panzer General Assault 3D, sure. The 3D interface runs smoothly for the most part, but even for a handful of units there are problems, particularly with moving and attacking with air units. It also relies a lot on a supplementary 2D information system.

By the way, this world is mostly in fractal, not 3D

[yin26]

Ah, that makes sense.

Certainly B&W is bringing something very exciting to gaming...and I certainly share in the anticipation. Perhaps one day we'll look back and pin-point B&W as a watershed moment in 3D programming.

But surely you must see that it's too late for Civ3 to use such an idea?

[UltraSonix]

One thing I thought that was missing in this thread was that Civ3 was supposed to provide unprecedented opportunity for the end-gamer to mod to their heart's content. I could, and did, change the visuals of Civ2 and SMAC, but so far, I haven't learnt how to use motion capture to design new units (a feature definitely needed for a game like BW).

[DirkZelwis]

Hello!
This thread has gone very far into a direction I do not like. So I'll add something.
First, please consider some information like "Washington is the capital of the US of A", or "You need gunpowder to build musceteers". How would you do this in 3D? And how many bytes are needed for "Washington is...", and how many for it in 3D?
Second, I remember a game on the Commodore64, where I played the WW2 german battleship Bismarck and the cruiser Prinz Eugen against some british battlegroup. On the map, Bismarck was represented by a "B", and Prinz Eugen was represented by an "E". It was fun to play, I enjoyed it, I was delighted! So much for graphics!
Third, I'd like to throw in Tetris. How many people bought Tetris? And how many bought it because of "excellent graphics"? I think Tetris is all the argument you need for good gameplay before good graphics.
Bye, Dirk
"Dirks and Daggers.
Sharp to the point."

[L o k i]

Ah, but I guarentee you, if someone makes Tetris VR, it would be twice as addictive.

[raingoon]

I'd like to jump in here and explain to Loki why he is wrong in suggesting that B&W graphics are needed for Civ 3 in any way.

Something that always humbles me when I ponder the great advancements of computer technology and immersive visual interfaces is the following fact. You know what the most sophisticated and imagination-stimulating graphical engine is to date?

A pencil.

A pencil and a piece of paper, actually. Put this in the hands of a genius like, say, Sid Meier and nothing can touch it for sheer ability to spark the imagination. To stimulate my senses? No. Not that. But give me the right idea on paper and I will be utterly and totally immersed. So will you. Just look how immersive this thread appears to have been so far? Face it, the debate on this thread alone is more immersive than at least three high-end graphical games you've played in the past -- put together. Because what a pencil and paper can do is spark the imagination. The job of a graphics engine like the B&W engine, what Loki wants, is to immerse me in a world that I don't have to imagine.

But the secret is -- and you won't hear this from people who sell 3D graphics cards -- it takes imagination to spark imagination.

Often we want to license that job out to technological stimulants, usually visual. Sometimes aural. And they stimulate your imagination to a point -- but they do not spark your imagination to create for itself the way a book will, or a basic abstraction -- even the Civ I graphics engine sparked a rational construct to take shape in your imagination that far exceeded the graphics of Civ 2 or any other game. I'll give you this, Loki, the B&W visuals look a lot like what it might look like if I was standing in my Civ. But that's just sensual stimulation. WHat you don't know, but I promise is true, is that after you played your fantasy Civ game a short while, you'd get the same experience we've all had with high-end visual games before. A tiny little voice in the back of your head would begin to say, incredibly: "...Huh -- this is MAYBE as fun as Civ I was, what's going on?"

Here's what's going on (or would be going on, as it were). Just like pornography is amazing for ten minutes, so would Civ 3D be amazing for ten minutes. Because it stimulates your senses as nearly as possibly approximating the real thing. After ten minutes, as someone once said, "you'd never want to have sex again." It's the same with computer games. The sensual stimulation of looking at such an amazing visual is NOTHING compared to the stimulation you get from imagining one. Why do you think Civilization was such a success in the first place?

The word "immersion" in this context does not mean literally to be immersed in a sensual sense. It means to be immersed in your own imagination. Which, oddly enough, requires the sparking of same, not -- and this is important -- an appreciation for what someone else has imagined. Cool as those B&W shots are, fantastic as that jet flying over your head is, you'll use your mouse to glance up at it on your computer monitor a few times, and after that you'll just wait for the sound to come out of your speakers letting you know it's there. Why? Because you can imagine what it looks like at least as well the game can render it.

Are cool graphics bad? No, no, no... They're fine. I'm talking about these so-called "immersive" graphics in the B&W engine. Those are bad for Civ 3 for the reasons I've mentioned, and because there is a point of diminishing returns in terms of drawing me into a computer game, and you're describing a scenario that would be beyond that point. This pseudo VR would be intriguing, to be sure. Even mind-blowingly fun -- for ten minutes. But it's not the real thing I'm after. What I'm after is the real game.

[L o k i]

I totaly agree that reading books is great for the imagination and immersion, but no matter what happens, I am going to lose interest, even in books, I can read a sentence and be interested in it for about 1 minute. And if you can make that sentence REALLY interesting, maybe a lot longer, and it may even get stuck in my head for the rest of my life. But, eventualy everything gets boring and 'known'.

The only thing that keeps us bloody humans going is change, and if you're going to make a computer game with change, you need a powerful graphics engine and a powerful AI.

I don't know if you have heard of Evolva, but apparently everything changes, morphs into something else randomly, so it's always a different game every time you play. This game needed a 3D engine and a powerful AI.

This is what I'm asking for.

[SkeleTony69]

If Civ 3 is in 3D I won't buy it even if I can afford it.
And Loki you couldn't have been more offensive too me in some of your comments if you had called my mother a slut.You sound like my friend frank when we talk about movies.He won't watch any thing that doesn't have explosions and big special effects,whereas I prefer a movie with a good script and acting etc..
I am a 2d graphic artist for shareware rpgs(Tom Proudfoot's "Pirates of the Western Sea" if anyone is curious...www.proudft.com)
and I have as much fun playing these types of games as I do Everquest.I am only starting out on the 3D stuff using Bryce 3D but I can tell you that 15 fps is not suitable for any game,most run at 30 to 40fps or faster.
The point is that "Civ" games are a different genre than 3D action or rts games and I hope it stays that way.

SkeleTony

[raingoon]

"A computer game with change" -- I suppose you mean not like Civ I, since we all know that was the same every time you played it. And Civ 2, which was almost petrified it was so static.

Loki, I don't know why you're talking about books -- I don't think you understood my post at all.

[L o k i]

SkeleTony69, I HATE movies, games, etc with no plot and just killing, etc.

Just because you make a game 3D doesn't mean you change its freakin GENRE, gods sake! Get a grip, its just giving the game more depth and power, which Civ DESERVES!

Civ and Civ2 were replayable, but! that doesn't mean you can't improve on that!!

And Books, read between the lines.