Civ III Engine Proposal

[L o k i]

I know I've said this before, probably twice, but to me it's very important. But now I have even more information about a graphics engine we could use for Civ III. And I'm not saying just 'could' but 'should' too.

I don't know how many of you, including Firaxis and Sid Meier himself are aware of the game Black and White by Lionhead Studios. If you do know a fair bit about the game, you will know why I am suggesting we use Black and Whites Engine.

We now have the technology to further emerse the player into the game itself. As many people have said, including myself, the Enviroment is one of the main aspects of Civilization. It's where Civilization grows and lives. It is their requirement. So in other words, the more realistic it is, the better Civilization will be. Because, it just doesn't seem right to put people on a non-living world with no depth, does it.

Black and White's engine, personaly, is the best engine to use for this game. Unless, you can come up with something better. (VR? haha).

Here are a bunch of screenshots of Black and White, so you can use your imaginations as to what the game will be like if it was Civilization III.

Before I give you the screenshots, I just want to let you know that this world is a living-breathing world. The tree's sway, the seasons change, snow settles or disappears into the ground. Tree's change to a golden flavour in autumn, rainbows, storms/rain, and even day and night. You can see the sunrise come up and go down. Birds fly, animals are chasing each other for food or reproducing. Well, you get the picture.
http://bwvault.ign.com/display.cgi?images/screen009.jpg http://bwvault.ign.com/display.cgi?images/screen003.jpg http://bwvault.ign.com/display.cgi?images/screen008.jpg http://bwvault.ign.com/display.cgi?i...reen011big.jpg http://bwvault.ign.com/display.cgi?images/screen005.jpg

And remember, the engine is very controlable. You can zoom in so close you can see a worm poking out of an apple on top of a barrel. And you can zoom out so far, you are pretty much in space.
It's also a scalable engine. So when you zoom out everything gets smaller and when you zoom in everything gets larger.
http://www.gamecenter.com/Features/E...te/shot03.html

You can rotate it round, its all controlled by grabbing the land with a hand cursor and pulling it or pushing it. And the camera view moves forward or backward or around. Total freedom.

Peter M, the designer of the game recently said. IN SCALE. Judging by the size of the villagers in the game, the entire world in Black and White is 3 times larger than our planet Earth. So don't think that there's not enough room.

And if you think computers aren't powerful enough. Surely you have a P200 with/without a 3DCard? It will always run at 15fps I think it is, which is a good smooth rate. The human eye can't really distinquish any faster than that really.

And how many units do you think can be displayed at once on screen? 500. How many units do you have an entire game? I end up with about 50. Heck, not even close to 500.

All I am saying is, if you want to make this a great game, and I know its worth it. I mean for christs sake, everyone loves it, even people who don't like these sort of games. You have to make it good, and you should be using the best thats available. No crappy looking, freedomless engines!

[Youngsun]

Beautiful graphics I say!

quote: And how many units do you think can be displayed at once on screen? 500. How many units do you have an entire game? I end up with about 50. Heck, not even close to 500.

Me around 200~300 units. 500 units?! once in a life time.

[Malignantx]

Wow the graphics are beautiful. Yes and even before CivII came around i imagined graphics like these would be "needed" in order to fully imerse the player and attain a level of interaction no 2d, chess looking game could. These graphics are awesome, just imagine the possibilities and how realistic civIII can be now. CivIII would totally blow away the competition =p. Of course the gameplay must be on an equal level, graphics only complement the gameplay.

[The Joker]

WOW!

I can only say one thing: I want to buy this game! What sort of game is it?

If Civ3 is to use graphics that are anything like that it would be truly great.

[yin26]

It's an interesting idea. I happen to like U9's graphics better, but the world is not as maleable, of course.

Personally, I'm looking forward to a more "simple" Civ3, but that's because I'm hungry for a retro Civ3 with ultra-modern stuff built into the AI and the gameplay itself.

HOWEVER, a Civ-like game with a BW or U9 engine would be great. Firaxis' next game anybody? Or maybe BHG is already on it?

[Stuff2]

quote: Originally posted by Youngsun on 05-15-2000 01:53 AM ...Me around 200~300 units. 500 units?! once in a life time.

On a big map in civ2 I usually end up with atleast 150 cities. I usually have about 3-5 units in (or around) every city. that's about 600 units. And above this i usually have about 100 engineers working the land. That's a total on 700 units. (This is why i've started to hate units and stopped playing civ2). Is there any further degree of difficulties or am I just too good? hehe

[OrangeSfwr]

Sweet graphics, looks like something made with "Bryce 4". Have any more info on this game, I never heard of it. Remember, with the bigger map, more units may be a necessity

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[L o k i]

Okay, Black and White is a type of God game, you control the villagers and a titan. The AI is the most advanced AI ever created for a game. Its one of the top 5 games in development. Halo, Freelancer, DeusX and I think..The Sims was the other one, but I'm not sure. But after E3, people have agreed that Black and White beats them all hands down.

It's really difficult to explain in a short sentence. You really need to find out for yourself.
http://www.lionhead.co.uk Thats the official site. You can find it there.

Yin, what is U9?

And I understand that there can be a lot of units in a Civ game, but do you ever see them all at the same time? Thats what I was saying. And it's obvious that if the units aren't doing anything, then you could have thousands of units viewed at the same time.

[yin26]

U9 = Ultima 9

The graphics were (are) amazing--if you have a powerful enough computer, that is. So while the weather effects were stunning and you actually felt "in" the game at times, my 450 Mhz P2 with 128 MB ram (16MB Voodoo2) choked in places, which really ruined the immersive feeling. If you haven't given the game a try, the last patch they made gets the game in pretty good shape.

However, most people don't have a comp powerful enough to run all the stuff at full tilt, so it's a bit disappointing. Ultima on-line 2 is coming out, and you can see shots of that around, too.

But we need an engine that runs smoothly on most machines, not just on a priviledged few, so it seems like PM is doing the right thing. But I do hope he leaves plenty of space for people to crank things up if they have the power.

[yin26]

Check out some shots of U9.

I realize that a kind of God-like perspective would be better for a Civ3 game, but you can get an idea of the kind of detail they put in. Surprisingly, the game itself looks and feels even better.

[Adm.Naismith]

Loki, very nice screenshots! Thank you for news.

I'm only a bit upsetted by your enthusiastic:

quote: The AI is the most advanced AI ever created for a game.

Did you played the game in beta or you simply pass for true the common marketing "$h!t"?

Back to wonderful Black & White graphics, I agree it looks very immersive, BUT it can be appropriate for a TBS game, where B&W instead is real time?

I mean, how can we control the units movement with precise tuning? Squares or exagons (hidden or visible) are a need IMHO. Quite difficult to match a grid system with a so smooth graphic.

Of course I will be pleased to see I'm wrong (on real game, not by some players dream), better if I can play so beatiful beast on affordable Notebook (no 3D cards as powerful as desktop models).

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[L o k i]

Ah Ultima, yes I've seen those screenshots. They do look awesome.

I've been studying Black and White as much as I can for over 2 years now. The Freedom in the game, is much more than anyone is used to, this type of freedom in the game, is the most that has ever been created. It's difficult to explain how large and powerful the Engine is, how new it is, compared to games now. All I can say is, think big, think REALLY BIG. Because that is precisly what this game is.

and Adm, you have made valid points. I did very quickly fear that there wouldn't be a way to 'control' the units and so forth.

I'll tell ya what though, through my eyes, imagining how Civ III would work in a rule-less world. Would work much the same way as it does in real life. Just like it is in that other game. Shogo, anyone know it?

If I want to put my tank behind two tree's, I should be able to do it. If I want the turret to stick out 4 inches over a pond, I should be able to do it. Think about this. The Sky is completely open. There are no tiles.

Imagine, you as a tribe struggling in this large island, looking up at the sky one day, in your beautiful tropical enviroment, and seeing a jet fighter fly 700mph over your island and disappearing in seconds across the horizon. And then suddenly realising, how pathetic you are. And how advanced life is out there across the ocean.

Or Vice Versa. There is SO much depth, you can isolate yourself, you can now be a part of the game, or you can open yourself up, travel to another island, now, you can REALLY explore, a world, instead of continous tiles - this is not exploring.

Lionhead is not a ****ty company. They allow thousands of people beta test their game within the sudios. They are a dedicated, down to earth company, surprisingly, more down to earth than Blizzard. Christ, Lionhead are donating some of the money that Black and White sells to charity. (And it's not a publicity stunt).

I ask Firaxis, Sid Meier, to heavly consider, opening the world, and allowing us to actualy, sit in this world.

I actualy, want to play my game, and one day, see a large galleon come over the ocean, land on my beach and meet me, face to face. Now thats diplomacy!

[The Joker]

Hmm, I am not sure.

Somehow I feel it could wreck the Civ experience with such stunning graphics (did I really say that?).

It does sound nice to be able to LIVE the world you are playing in, but I feel that that is not how civ games are. In civ games you are supposed to run a civ, not be astounded by the graphics.

In other words I could say that I feel that this graphic is too realtime. I am not sure it would work in turnbased. And I would sure hate to control every little tank in my tank division, so that they all just stick 4 inches (10 centimeters?) over some building.

In stead I hope for Civ3 to have a great AI, superb diplomacy, the rise and fall of empires, a people that actually have a will and stuff like that. Combined with CPT like graphics (I thought the graphics was the best part of that game), and possibly a spherical, tileless world (I would really like this, although there are things I would much rather have) this could be the civ of my (our?) dreams.

Meanwhile: It this game complete, and if not, when will it be?

BTW I can't even begin to believe that the world in B&W is actually LARGER (??!?!!) than the earth! Is this true? So you can have billions of trees and birds that ALL move with the wind or fly over the land??

[Adm.Naismith]

Loki, I must admit I share some of The Joker fear.

quote: It does sound nice to be able to LIVE the world you are playing in, but I feel that that is not how civ games are. In civ games you are supposed to run a civ, not be astounded by the graphics.

Yes, some touches are really nice (seeing a plane flying over your head: an image worth a million words ), but I must take care of strategic Civ choices.

Seeing soldiers butchered on Normandia beaches didn't helped Montgomery or Eishenower to make better strategic decisions. It can be really immersive to see fights and labours from ground, but you really end loosing the whole scenery, IMHO.

Sky isn't the limit, my mind is!

It can be really interesting (immersive) to see some cut-scene (some battles or mid-turns events) modelized with so nice detail, but I suppose using this engine for cut-scene (pre-rendered are so boring, always-the-same) is really as using guns against flies: way too much (but it really take care of flies, you know ).

Of course I'll always sustain a spherical globe map for Civ worlds, if I can manage it.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Atahualpa]

Stuff2: CivIII will hit shores in 2001. I guess even late 2001. I am quite sure you will have a newer system at that time.
Nevertheless, I dont know if the BW engine is suitable for Civ. I think it would more fit to Sid Meier's Dinosaurs.
Dont get me wrong, I am all in favour of 3D, but a bit reduced engine would be alright too. Civ games dont live because of graphics but because of gameplay.
Of course graphics do play an important role, but gameplay is at least as important. While in Shooters for example graphics are much more important than gameplay.

ATa