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**Napoleon I** · May 17, 2000, 23:28

OrangeSfwr:

I don't really see why we should keep the number of wonders the same as in the previous versions. First of all, if we are going to expand the tech tree then it would make sence to expand the wonders also.

Besides, there is one more reason why I would support greatly enlarging the number of wonders. Under the current system, if a civilization gets really powerful early on then they could build all the wonders for themselves and never relinquish their lead. For example, before Italy was unified in the nineteenth century the Italian states were very weak compared to the other European states. Therefore, in game conditions Leonardo's Workshop would have been built by China or France and not by Italy. So I think that if we are trying to stay historical about things, I think that we should enlarge the number of wonders and make sure that the little guys always have something to work on and catch up.

Aside from that your wonder descriptions sound pretty reasonable. Thanks for all the typing that you had to do to bring that to us.

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Napoleon I

**OrangeSfwr** · May 18, 2000, 16:15

Napoleon - I agree about the expanded Tech tree. But by adding more wonders we are dominating the production with Wonders and not on other things of importance. And just because there are more wonders doesn't mean that the most powerful nations can not build them all. I see it in the opposite way. The more wonders, the more powerful the larger, dominant civs become. Mostly because they can build wonders faster and cheaper than the little civs can.

My other gripe with new wonders is that we're comparing the Pyarmids(Big WoW) to something like The Wright Brother's first flight (no offense intended to whoever suggested that). I was upset that Women's Sufferage and Darwin's Voyage were so powerful in the game, but now I'm used to them. I don't see room for any other WoWs. I know a lot of people are against me.

But back to the topic...

For the current wonders, what should be added/changed/deleted from my list...

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

**Christantine** · May 18, 2000, 16:49

I don't understand??? : confused:

[This message has been edited by Christantine (edited May 18, 2000).]

**Venger** · May 18, 2000, 17:49

Orangewhatever: (what does the Sfwr stand for anyways?)

I appreciate your argument on the expansion of the wonder list leading to a game where everyone just produces wonders - good thinking in advance. Maybe we should keep the same number of major wonders, and introduce a like number of minor wonders. These wonders produce significant effects, but not on the scale of the Pyramids or Mike's Chapel, and cost half of major wonders.

For instance, to build aircraft, someone must research flight AND build the Wright Brothers Flight. No air units for anyone until one person builds it. Side effects for the builder would be a free air unit and 10% reduced build cost for aircraft until Stealth. What do you think?

Damn, I know I could build a kick ass Civ-style game in my spare time...if I had any...

Venger

**OrangeSfwr** · May 18, 2000, 18:21

Christatine - I noticed that there were a lot of threads talking about Wonders recently so I decided to start a new thread...this one. I listed all changes to wonder's I feel are important for Civ3. Than I asked for comment...

Venger - I understand what you're saying about minor wonders. But it still results in an enormous amount of time spent building wonders. If we have 28 Major wonders and 16 minor ones (just an estimate, I assumed 4 for each epoch) than there will be 44 wonders that will be built by the end of the game. This requires production, time, and/or money (Gold). I don't think this is realistic.

In Civ 2, I almost always had a city working on a wonder, and I didn't like it. Plus the fact that other civs worked on wonders as well. I'm suggesting that something change about this. That's all.

I like your ideas for the wright brothers flight. But as a WoW (Or minor wonder) it makes production focus on Wonders when I don't think this is the point of Civ at all.

Furthermore, I like the idea of enabling techs. It makes perfect sense to me to have the first Civ to discover flight to recieve a message talking about the Wright Brothers and their first flight. Than you can add the things you spoke of. Why should you have to build something? That's my argument against your proposed "minor wonders". Another example would be the first people to Monotheism with Printing Press (or some relevant tech) would get a message about Gutenberg (sp) publishing the Bible (or other Holy Book. This is assuming religion is implemented in Civ 3)

I hope I have cleared a lot up. I look forward to hearing more comments. Also, bring up ideas listed in other threads about Wonders. I created this thread in order to have a centerplace of WoW discussion.

P.S. Venger - "OrangeSfwr" is a long and irrelevant story so I'll spare you

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

**OrangeSfwr** · May 19, 2000, 17:36

I wanted to transfer this idea here. Wanna know what everyone thinks. I'm sorta on the fence even though I suggested it.

~~~~~QUOTE~~~~~
I would replace Hoover Dam with "Three gorges dam" (Yangtze River - China, estimated completion 2014)

Going to be the largest manmade dam ever. Creates a giant resivior in mid china causing the relocation of over 2 million people. Anyone hear of this? I think this should replace Hoover Dam because Hoover Dam, although very important, is no where near as Ginormous as the Yangtze River Dam (Three Gorges Dam).

I think it should reduce factory/manufacturing polluition by half. (In real life, by 20% but that's not very good in the game)
~~~~~QUOTE~~~~~~

Christatine brought up the fact that it hasn't been built yet and may be a failure or may never be finished so maybe it shouldn't be in the game. She thinks we should stick to Hoover Dam because it is more well known to Americans.

I don't quite have an opinion yet, any thoughts on this?

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

**tniem** · May 20, 2000, 23:16

Don't change it the Three Gorge Dam in China. It is not finished to this date and so it would have to be a future wonder (maybe there should be a few to go along with future tech). There is talk that the Dam may not even work when it is complete. While it may become the largest dam it is not here yet.

If there is going to be a change from Hoover to something, make it the Aswan High Dam. That is world famous, complete, and working.

**OrangeSfwr** · May 21, 2000, 14:07

Ok I see the point now against the 3GD so I'm willing to let that idea go. But about keeping the wonders the same...

How about for NORAD, make it for the first person to develop radar. This enabling tech idea can really go places and reduce micromanagement a LOT.

I thought of another idea today about the list I made. Someone talked about how Leo's workshop is to powerful in the game. I see it more as a science booster in real life than a unit upgrade wonder. So how about givnig you a boost in science? Thoughts on this?

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

**Christantine** · May 21, 2000, 15:40

Constantine - Cons + Christopher-topher = Christantine

I am male, thank you.

Anyway...back on topic. I like the idea of NORAD.

BTW: I don't see the difference between this thread and mine.

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I came, I saw, I conquered...my allies!!

**OrangeSfwr** · May 21, 2000, 19:16

quote:

Originally posted by Christantine on 05-21-2000 03:40 PM
Constantine - Cons + Christopher-topher = Christantine

I am male, thank you.

Whoops, sorry about that. I assumed it was your name. I guess I made an "ass" out of "ume"

quote:

Originally posted by Christantine on 05-21-2000 03:40 PM
Anyway...back on topic. I like the idea of NORAD.

I do to, but as a bonus for first to discover radar (or similar tech) or as a wonder? I'm in favor of less wonders and more enabling techs so I think the it should be part of an enabling tech for radar.

quote:

Originally posted by Christantine on 05-21-2000 03:40 PM
BTW: I don't see the difference between this thread and mine.

Difference: Your thread focuses on the Pax wonder, mine was not started to discuss that wonder. Plus, my starting post on this thread is about what changes I see in WoWs and states my feeling on the number of them. Where in your thread is this discusses in detail?

BTW: Still looking for more comments on that

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

**Father Beast** · May 21, 2000, 21:54

The ideas for wonders always fascinate me. it must be a heck of a chore to try and balance them so that they're not so powerful for the cost.
I personally think there should be an age of wonders for the future age,which could begin with the Apollo program.
some wonders could be:
Apollo Program
Norad (good idea)
Space Elevator (my personal favorite)
First Man On The Moon (happiness, reputation)

Maybe others. I'm thinking that there would be 7 major wonders per age, making a total of 35.
on the subject of minor wonders. I ran across a good idea in THE LIST that hasn't received much talk was that there would be "mini wonders" which would be neccesary to each civilization, but could only be built once by each civ. That could be the basis for minor wonders.
Also, if there is a future age, I would like to see a third form of each of the "support" units, diplomat, caravan, settler. How about a technospy (I haven't thought of its abilities), trader (able to move across land and water alike to make its destination), and the terraformer, actually able to rearrange coastlines by raising seabeds to land, or lowering to create more seas.

**OrangeSfwr** · May 21, 2000, 23:08

I neglected the set of wonders for the "future" epoch in my list. Maybe we should discuss this in detail as well. As for "first man on the moon" how does that bring happiness? I mean, real happiness like in the game, not just "oh wow, we landed on the moon". I agree it gives you a good reputation with space programs, but how does it change what other nations think of you? That's my problem with it.

Any thoughts on other "future wonders"? I have one (and yes I know it has been discussed)...also possible as a 'prize' for the first to discover a certain tech (can you tell I'm really pushing this enabling tech idea?)

World Wide Web

Puts an "internet" improvement in every city. (Internet improvement, in conjunction with library/university/research lab, multiplies science output by 200%)

Or

Triple science output of city

Thoughts on this?

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

**Par4** · May 22, 2000, 00:51

Oh common the 3 gorge dam can't replace the Hoover. First of all we have to help Firaxis in the selling department a little, all the mindless Americans aren't going to be happy to see the hoover replaced with some half built chinese dam. Second if{when} china attacks Taiwan, if we don't have a vietnam esque war, that dam will be down in a heart beat.

tomahawk-------------------------dam
----------------------tomahawk---dam
---------------------------------no more dam

A wonder I want to see after advanced radar or something is NORAD. Common everyone knows this is a god send, it tracks everything that flies in space and everything that flys near the western hemisphere and europe. It could give complete coverage of air units so you could see incoming nukes tradjectories(if we can't manuver(sp) nukes in civ3) and evac that city if it doesn't have SDI or move a mobile SDI in. You could see 1 turn in advance just for gameplays sake. It could also give 1/2 price for satelites and space stuff and maybe a radar station in each city.

Evacing cities for nuke alert. All citizens move into the suburb cities or neighboring cities for the time before the nuke hits then return with the nuke having not destroyed the pop just the infastructure.

Mobile SDI big planes with lasers can intercept ICBM coming within there flight range.

Radar station upgrades air units range while in that city and AAA capabilities of that city.

Don't keep the same number of wonders, I want more just make em a little easier to get or put a limit on the amount per turn you can build. Maybe 5 but you could always buy a wonder then replace it next turn. But I have no problem always building wonders in a few of my cities.

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**Napoleon I** · May 22, 2000, 02:02

A good future wonder would be the DNA Genome Map, with effects of eliminating disease, increasing population growth and decreasing unhappiness for a certain number of turns.

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Napoleon I

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