Communism in Civ3 -- Ideas

[PrinceOfWeasels]

Hello! 8)

I haven't played Civ2 yet, but I have been a very big fan of Civilization One for a while now. After experience with its Communism model of government, I was hoping that in new versions, there could be some more realistic additions to it. Communism works better, as Marx himself said, in a nation that is already industrial and with enough money to support the change to it.

What I was thinking is that the Communism model in the game could require a high number of shields (made possible by factories and manufacturing plants) in all cities of a nation that have a population number over five. Communism could still be selected, but for every city or number of shields that is not up to par, a relative amount of money could be lost to the nation, eventually leading to a large drain on funds, sending cities into disrepair (unable to support walls, granary, barracks, etc.) and causing the disbanding of military units. I think that this should all happen relatively quickly (over a period of not more than 10-20 years/turns), and the numbers involved for both requirements and 'punishments' should be high. However, I feel that there should be more positive additions to the model, also.

If there are enough factories and enough shields and enough money, then I believe that the goal of Communism should be reached by the nation-- near-Utopian levels of corruption, production, food, peace, and population. Seeing as Communism is the last of the government models to be learned by a civilization, and the effects of not being able to support Communism being considered, I think these privelages are justified. I feel that this is a more realistic way to program the Communism model. It goes along better with the theories and goals behind Communism, and with world history and practice of Communism in nations that were unable to support it.

Thank you!
I am sorry if this isn't where you're supposed to send ideas, but I couldn't find any e-mail to send to. 8)



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[Andz83]

What's that a signature for?

[OrangeSfwr]

i like your ideas about penalties for nations that can not support Communism. You should definitely spread some of your thoughts to the thread about Government's that influence production. We got into a whole debate on the subject.

And I had the same question Andz did...

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[Par4]

Something tells me this is going to degrade into a communism can't work vs communism hasn't had a chance to work thread if given time. I have no problem with true communism but what about Stalinism, and the fact that I and many others believe communism can't work because of human nature and how exactly do you get consumer goods and stuff in a commie nation where everyone has the same, are you given points to take the government store and get what you can for that month?? Has there even been a true communist nation on this planet, and we can only have true communism if we have SE because true communism is democracy because all take part in government because everyone owns everything so we can't have democracy and communism or it will mess with peoples minds. If we do have communism it has to economic in the SE and with democracy could give all the corruption and production benefits. How exactly does communism stop corruption anyway??? Ineffecency needs to be a minus as well as low amounts of taxes. I might be anti commie as I am a die hard free marketer Go laissez-faire!!!!!! Communism also shouldn't raise population, just because you have the government to fall back on doesn't mean you start breeding like bunnies.

Boo communism, I work hard for the money, so hard for the money, I work hard for the money and no bum is gonna get mine, I work hard for the money, So hard for the money, I work hard for the money and the government isn't gonna take my dough tonight, dodo dodo, go free market, dodo dodo oohh yes free market, take a look and hong kong, the US and japan, dodo dodo, I work hard for the money, dodo dodo so hard for the money, I work hard for the money and we won't got no monopolies, dodo dodo, and everyone works hard, dodo dodo or they starve in the streets, dodo dodo, so get outta here commies or well put you in a crate and send you back to Fiiiiiijjjjjjjiiiiiiii, dodo dodo.

So should I start a new career as a singer??

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I use this email
(stupid cant use hotmail)
gamma_par4@hotmail.com
Don't ask for golf tips
Your game will get worse

[PrinceOfWeasels]

Hehe. ;D
My signature is the Prince of Weasels, but half of his neck was left out. 8) The picture should be:

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See? First is his crown, then his ear and his eyes and his muzzle, then his smile and his neck. 8)

Thank you for your support in my ideas. 8) I understand that they are not realistic, sofar as getting a chance of being put into the game, given the market's view of Communism (the market IS Capitalism, they don't want to KNOW there's a better way , but I believe that we are acting maturely in that we are at least setting forth the truth to these people who, while probably never being alive during the Cold War, still look at Communism with Pattonesque attitudes. Too, it'd be cool to have all that going on in the game, and I believe that it's a neat way for it to be put in-- the building to a Utopian-like society is a goal of humanity, so why not incorporate it into gameplay? 8)

Because of the high requirements for Communism, I believe that nations that cannot meet it should have penalties put to them in a way that would force Fascism to stay able to provide--that goes along more with reality also, I think. So many unhappy citizens because they've lost so much, the only way to keep every city from disorder would be to make that switch and take that path--Fascism making a police-state wherein unhappy citizens become happy, though less-productive (except for military purposes).

Again, I know I do not set forth my ideas in a way where they are easy to take seriously--but I hope that you can take what you read here and figure out an even better way that can possibly get put into what I'm sure will be a very fun and popular game. 8)

Thank you! 8)




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[PrinceOfWeasels]

Ack--the PrinceWeasel I typed had a messed up muzzle. Please refer to the actual signature for comparison, and for the real deal. 8)

If anyone has ever played the game 'Shadow President', the types of interaction you can do with other developed nations might be somethings that, if seriously reworked, could work in CivIII. This type of interation would require modern-day civilization, however. Just a thought. 8)

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[OrangeSfwr]

Prince - just some advice...the button called "edit" at the top of each post. You can change what you wrote if you have errors rather than doing a whole new post.

The Prince of Weasels - is that an actual cartoon/cartoon charachter or just something you made up? What does it all mean man!?!?



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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[PrinceOfWeasels]

Oh, Par4, your sardonic rapier-sharp wit never ceases to amuse even /this/ gruff old salamander wizard. ... Yes. O.o;

Anyway. 8)

Okay, say what you're wanting to, Par4 -- but, truth is, we were going to stay mostly out of the Communist vs. Not-Communist, until you brought up what you did. Really, anything I brought up about Communism that I felt was a plus over other systems, I backed up with what could be done sofar as game-model, so.. I'm not trying to start arguing, on this thread. That's why I've stopped reading the other thread where a lot of bad-stuff is going on. 8)
Thanks for reading my thread, though. 8)



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[Par4]

I don't think this will turn into a commmie vs stalinist thread, if I gave that impression sorry. It would be cool if we could have true communism maybe some people will become smarter and then learn more about it and then turn to the light and embrace free market I've been thinking about this a little while watching 3rd rock and wheres the happiness bonus, most people I know are mindless dumbies and would love nothing more than what communism gives, I hope this will change, of course they don't think I am talking about communism they think I'm a loonie talking about Stalinism, sad our schools are so bad. As for governments changing form good idea, maybe communist to stalinist to fascist, fascism and stalinism is very close. True democracy is as rare as communism, maybe democracy to democratic republic to republic to imperialist republic, where the government gradually has less and less people making laws and more representitives.

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I use this email
(stupid cant use hotmail)
gamma_par4@hotmail.com
Don't ask for golf tips
Your game will get worse

[Youngsun]

I would support any ideology which allows private ownership. If I can not own things that I earned myself how can I be productive member of the society? isn't that simple? Just bear in mind many human beings are egocentric and work for themselves otherwise the golbe will be filled with charity organisations.

[Urban Ranger]

Youngsun,

Not everybody works that way. There are large number of hackers (in the original positive sense) work on programs, utilities, and entire systems. They give the stuff away free and they are giving M$FT a big headache

[PrinceOfWeasels]

I was reading through a post for ideas that said that a government for increasing prodution was needed, and a user gave reasons why Communism should not be used for this. If you have read my first post, you know that this opinion is contrary to mine. So I am going to defend my idea, and help to clarify my reasoning behind it.

Yes, it is true that Russia and North Kora and those other Communist nations you gave examples of are, today, behind European and Western nations sofar as consumer-level technology and production. But, as I said, there should be penalties for nations that cannot support it. Though Russia's change to Communism was right, Russia was definately not the ideal nation for Communism. Russia was a country of mostly farmers, not the wealthy, industrious nation that Marx said would be suited for Communism. The fate of Russia's military and production go along with what I had said about penalties for countries that cannot support the new government.

The same user gave his opinion that Stalinism, which he equates with Communism, is very near to Nazism. As this board is for ideas for a game, I will give my arguments on that level. Stalinism does not equal Marxism, which is what I believe the game-model of Communism should represent.
On the subject of a Fascism model, I believe that under that type of government all production should be limited to military units, and trade points should decrease dramatically, and diplomatic relations would be rejected by any Communist, Democratic, or Republic country--perhaps, even, war would be declared by any nations nearby to the cities of the Fascist nation. Also, under Fascism, scientific advancements should decrease by 30 percent, as, in reality, some of the brighter minds would leave the country. I understand that the Fascist country would force some scientific research, or put its efforts into militaristic research, but the amount of resources acquired by the Fascist trait of Expansionist Imperialism would lead to equal if not greater advancement than Democratic or Republic countries. Furthermore, I believe that any AI controlled Communist countries should automatically declare war against Fascist nations.

In short, I believe in a revision of outlook to be:

Fascist = Expansionist Imperialism (Nazism, percieved Stalinism)
Communist = Marxist (Utopian ideals)

Marxists.org has much information.

I understand that this is complicated, and could be seen as overly so, but realism /is/ complicated.
Perhaps the entire system of government and what form and what effects it has should be dictated more by actions than by what system of government. Say that you have chosen Democracy or Republic, yet you build up your military excessively, make little peace, and attack other nations, and move settlers into other countries' territory, you would then become Imperialist. Also, if you chose Communism, and used the production for militaristic and Expansionist purposes, you would become Fascist.
These sub-systems of Government could have their own effects. I already gave the effects for Fascism, but for Imperialism, maybe it could be smaller nations attacking or being otherwise uncooperative, and building up against you. Of course, you can always choose revolution, and get things back well.

I know I rambled on a bit, and got very complicated, but something more than a "Yahoo!.com News" outlook on government must be given to the programming of the systems in this game if realism is to be reached.

Thank you. 8)



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[Youngsun]

Yes I know I know are you perhaps one of them too?

[Grier]

I think it might be a good idea if the actions you take within the game shape what kind of government you have, this would make more sense for the ai countries as well, as its bad to have a facist government as allies whilst the democracy tries to take over the world.

[PrinceOfWeasels]

Grier is the only person I'm going to reply to. If you understandably feel that your views need to be expressed, please do it on the other thread--I honestly didn't mean for this thread to be exclusively for the larger argument on it. I hadn't seen that argument when I made this thread, and I was just hoping we could get a more ideaoligy-friendly game-model in Civ3, if certain things were worked out here.
Regardless of whatever you're wanting, whether it's money or equality, I assure that the little computer people are not going to help you in your fight, so don't worry too much about them that you would get upset at other people on the thread.


Thanks for the reply, Grier. 8) I'm glad you'r eliking the idea, and I've given it some more thought also. What if government-types were completely abolished, ending arguments about whether it's true to ideaoligies we stand behind, and instead, at any point in the game, you could change a set of economic, political, social, and militaristic variables, and these alone would determine production, trade, scientific, and contentment levels?

My example is VERY underdeveloped--it does not set forth at all any principles that could be used in making this system work, except for the extreme minimum basic of being done through a menu and with percentages. Perhaps even it would work better without percentages? And please, if this idea appeals to you, do give new categories that would influence moreso the type of government -- I understand that what I have said is basically only touching upon production, but I'm very sleepy at the moment. ;P

A menu, with something along the lines of:

Police-State: 30%
Industrial Force: 30%
Argricultural Force: 40%
Business Force: 30%
etc., etc.

'Industrial force' and 'Business force' would take different names before they were invented, but basically industry = shield production, business force = money and trade.
Like I Said, there's really nothing there that will influence government-type. Police-state is more of a contentment-adjuster, that I believe would 'boost' the morale of the populous, while somewhat decreasing morale of military units, and also decreasing lightbulb-levels.

But, gaw, I'm late with this discussion anyway -- the team at work on this is probably further along than what I'm saying by now, huh? ;P

Please, no one take my requesting to keep things game-model related as an insult--I'm not trying ot make you look bad in front of all the cool online-people. ;D ;P Just a request. 8)



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