New Gameplay Mechanics in 1.29f

[Catt]

Just finished my latest game under the new 1.29f patch, and noticed 2 new (unannounced) tweaks in the in-game mechanics. [If I am misremembering the old version, please let me know].

1. Making peace while in an MPP now terminates the MPP. I'm not sure I even tested this under 1.21, but I seem to recall (pretty clearly) that once an MPP was signed, it would run for 20 turns - the only way to end it early was to go to war with your MPP partner. I remember this because of the frustrating frequency of making peace with a civ (breaking my MPP treaty) but being thrown right back into war on the next turn as my former enemy attacked my (still) MPP partner. Thus 2 "treaty incidents" - (i) breaking an MPP, and (ii) breaking a peace treaty. In my latest game, my MPP ally made peace and our MPP went away only 8 -10 turns into the MPP.

2. You can now demand strategic or luxury resources in peace negotiations. One frustrating aspect of 1.21f was the inability to demand a luxury trade deal as a condition to peace (even when the enemy was willing to give away cities / techs / gold etc.) In my latest game, in negotiations with an enemy, once "peace treaty" was on the table, so were all the other possible trades (including luxuries) -- they were not greyed out as they had been under 1.21f.

Confirmations or contradictions?

Catt

[Theseus]

#2. I could have sworn I tried this over the weekend, and resources were still greyed out... you sure??

[Catt]

I took a screenshot of it (I was surprised), so I should have a game date in the screenshot, which means an approximate date for a saved game (probably have something close). I will reload and try it again, and will post the game if others don't come forward with confirmations.

BTW, the resources may still be greyed out if you don't have a viable trade route with the enemy civ.

Catt

[steven8r]

Catt,

As far as I can tell, everything has always been available on the Treaty table regardless of patch.

Could the grey-out resources have been due to a lack of roads/harbors/airports to their capital?

The lack of a trade route is the only thing that I can ever remember to grey-out certain items in the trade window.

I don't think the availability to trade resources, strategic/luxury is affected by anything but access.

[Catt]

Prior to 1.29f (maybe still under 1.29f, and I just got a buggy game) you couldn't trade with a civ while at war. A consequence of this restriction was that you couldn't trade resources with a civ unless a peace treaty was in effect - so you couldn't offer a peace treaty to evil Hammurabi at the cost of a nice 20-turn supply of silks. You had two choices: (1) make peace, and then go back for the silks without ever leaving the diplo screen; or (2) keep fighting until you take the silks. Option 1 sucked, because once the dogs of war are leashed again, Hammy has no incentive to ofer up his silks.

Catt

[Jaybe]

It took me quite some time to discover how to have trades allowed when ending a war. (1) Do NOT use the "our troops approach" or "we have overextended" options, as these disallow the desired negotiation values; instead, USE the "I have a proposal." (2) Click on Peace Treaty (the only thing available), and this makes other negotiation issues available.

[Arrian]

It would be nice if you're right about the luxuries/resources being available in peace treaty negotiations. I've gotten used to targetting them, so I can't confirm or deny your report. I'll keep an eye out, though.

Haven't had an MPP for a long time, but if it's true, it's a good thing.

-Arrian

[kring]

Originally posted by Jaybe
It took me quite some time to discover how to have trades allowed when ending a war. (1) Do NOT use the "our troops approach" or "we have overextended" options, as these disallow the desired negotiation values; instead, USE the "I have a proposal." (2) Click on Peace Treaty (the only thing available), and this makes other negotiation issues available.

This is how I usually end wars, unless the other person sneak attacked me.

And pre-1.29, I was able to get the resource offers. The flip side to this is that in 20 turns, you will have to renegotiate peace.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Jaybe
It took me quite some time to discover how to have trades allowed when ending a war. (1) Do NOT use the "our troops approach" or "we have overextended" options, as these disallow the desired negotiation values; instead, USE the "I have a proposal." (2) Click on Peace Treaty (the only thing available), and this makes other negotiation issues available.

Originally posted by kring
This is how I usually end wars, unless the other person sneak attacked me.

And pre-1.29, I was able to get the resource offers. The flip side to this is that in 20 turns, you will have to renegotiate peace.

Now I'm really confused. I almost always (say 99% of the time) use the "We would like to propose a deal" option rather than the agressive / contrite openings. And I have never been able to secure luxury or strategic resources as part of a peace treaty, at least not before my current game. I have even added my comment to threads complaining to Firaxis that this "bug" needed to be fixed.

Are you guys sure you could always get resources thrown in on a peace treaty? Is there another explanation (I use a Windows PC, do you guys use a Mac)?

Anyone else got any thoughts? I honestly thought it was well settled that you couldn't extort resources for peace - techs, gold, maps, cities, workers, diplomatic agreements (RoP, Communications, etc.) yes; resources, no.

Catt

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Catt
Are you guys sure you could always get resources thrown in on a peace treaty? Is there another explanation (I use a Windows PC, do you guys use a Mac)?

Anyone else got any thoughts? I honestly thought it was well settled that you couldn't extort resources for peace - techs, gold, maps, cities, workers, diplomatic agreements (RoP, Communications, etc.) yes; resources, no.

Sorry Catt, I do NOT personally know for sure about the resources bit. (I am using both Windoze and Mac).

[steven8r]

Catt,

I too, am using Windows. I've always been able to negotiate resources (if available) during Peace treaty.

Once they will acknowledge your envoy, the first and only thing you can negotiate is Peace. Once 'Peace' is on the table, all the other things open up.

But, as has already been mentioned above, if you get anything in addition to Peace; 20 turns later they will renegotiate for Peace.

I've been able to do this since before 1.21f through 1.29f.

Are you sure that they have roads to their capital? If you cut-off their capital, the resources can't be traded until someone builds a road back to it.

Do they have the resources available?

[Catt]

Originally posted by steven8r
Catt,

I too, am using Windows. I've always been able to negotiate resources (if available) during Peace treaty.

Once they will acknowledge your envoy, the first and only thing you can negotiate is Peace. Once 'Peace' is on the table, all the other things open up.

But, as has already been mentioned above, if you get anything in addition to Peace; 20 turns later they will renegotiate for Peace.

I've been able to do this since before 1.21f through 1.29f.

Are you sure that they have roads to their capital? If you cut-off their capital, the resources can't be traded until someone builds a road back to it.

Do they have the resources available?

Man - this is getting weirder all the time - it's almost like we're playing in parallel worlds with slightly different games.

Steven8r, I defintiely follow everything you're saying and agree with everything - except that in my games I could never get resources to show in the list as an available item.

A typical process worked like this: They acknowledge envoy; I say I have a deal to propose; the only deal option is Peace Treaty; once Peace Treaty is on the table the whole deal options list appears; I can mix and match different "demands" for peace (i.e., I offer Peace Treaty and I demand Peace Treaty, Communications w/French, 100 gold, 2 gpt, that worker in your capitol, and your World Map"); my goal is obviously to see what I can get for a 20-turn peace, and thereby make a decision to offer peace or tell the enemy to "Forget It."

But here is the problem - the resources (strategic and luxury) were always greyed out - the enemy might have 3 excess silks (I can see the greyed out silks), but I can't put them on the table, nor can I offer my resources as part of the negotiations.

Once a Peace Treaty is agreed to ("Well, the offer is light, but we'll take it"), I can again click on the "We would like to propose a deal" link and lo and behold, the enemy now has 3 excess silks which are available for trade - i.e., a valid trade route exists! And all this without ever having left the negotiating table! My conclusion (and others' explanation for the same thing) was always that the resources weren't greyed out due to lack of a trade route, but because of the then-current state of war. In this sense the trade screen worked just like trading with a civ under a trade embargo - cash purchases, tech trading and trading maps, etc was fine, but trading resources was impossible (and they were greyed out). I didn't agree with how it worked, but that's how the game worked for me.

There have been something like 90+ views of this thread - please chime in! Anyone got an explanation for why the different experiences? Am I smoking crack or something?

Catt

[Saurus]

Well, I have NEVER been able to negotiate resourses of any kind during peace negotiations.
They are always greyed out.

-S

[alva]

@ Catt:

I guess at least we're from the same universe, 'cause
that's whats happening here too

"Be damned, you foreign alien imposters "

[alexman]

I couldn't get luxuries as part of any peace treaty in my latest 1.29f game either. Never has been the case.

I think all that pot finally got to Hippie Sam.