How much longer 'till that marketplace will be built?

[The diplomat]

to solve the problem of items taking unrealistic amounts of turns to build in the beginning, how about calculating the time to completion by years rather than by turns. Then using how many years is a turn to tell the player when the item will be completed. For example, let's say we have two cities that are absolutely equal in all regards, and both are building the same item. The only difference is that one city is building the item in 3000 BC, the other in 1989 AD. Since both cities are equal, they both produce the item in say 20 years, but the city in 3000 BC will complete the item in 1 turn (because 1 turn = 20 years) and the other city in 1989 AD will complete the same item in 20 turns (because 1 turn = 1 year).

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No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.

[SandMonkey]

quote: Originally posted by Gord McLeod on 04-14-2000 07:13 PM I don't build many caravans unless I'm working on Wonders... they're too ineffecient.

wow... you really should come in the the Strategy section... if not to post, just to learn about some stuff befopre making comments like that... the caravan/freight is probably one of the MOST efficient units in the game; that and the diplomat/spy. A caravan can single handedly fuel an entire economy in trade, thus pushing you ahead.



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SandMonkey

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson

"Ecky ecky ecky!"
"It's just a flesh wound!"
- Monty Python and the Holy Grail

[MidKnight Lament]

Slingshot - I agree. Most of our research and advancement has been achieved quite recently in historical terms. I don't think I agree with everything you said, but I love the sentiment. Perhaps their should be happiness penalties for spending so many resources on science when your people are probably still quite scared of witchcraft and alchemy is unreliable. Your ideas would give a much greater sense of eras than what it is now where Ancient just means 'start of the game'. It would give it more feeling.

- MKL

[Gord McLeod]

quote: Originally posted by SandMonkey on 04-14-2000 11:00 PM wow... you really should come in the the Strategy section... if not to post, just to learn about some stuff befopre making comments like that... the caravan/freight is probably one of the MOST efficient units in the game; that and the diplomat/spy. A caravan can single handedly fuel an entire economy in trade, thus pushing you ahead.

I took the meaning to be when used as 'building a caravan and sending it to another city to disband it and gain half its value towards completing units and structures other than Wonders', which IMO is very ineffecient compared to some alternatives.
When used for trade, yes, they are pretty useful.

[Gord McLeod]

quote: Originally posted by MidKnight Lament on 04-14-2000 11:46 PM Slingshot - I agree. Most of our research and advancement has been achieved quite recently in historical terms. I don't think I agree with everything you said, but I love the sentiment. Perhaps their should be happiness penalties for spending so many resources on science when your people are probably still quite scared of witchcraft and alchemy is unreliable.

Maybe this could be simulated by having a tighter cap on the allowable percentage of science for early styles of governments... I've found that SMAC is pretty enjoyable with the slower tech advancement option selected. It makes you work a bit harder for every advance.

[Neon Deon]

Ouch 800 years to do a market place!
Well ok since in BC a turn can equal up to 50 years. But thats another story Maybee
cities should get production for population size. A shield per city size or a shield for every 2 city sizes. So a 2 city would give u one extra shield and a 42 city would give u 21 extra shields. Have the people produce

[Sirotnikov]

quote: Originally posted by Slingshot on 04-13-2000 05:29 PM The whole ancient era gets glossed over, in my opinion. This should be a time where: 1. The tech race is less important from turn to turn, although when techs are discovered, they mean something big. (eg. invention of the chariot or iron weapons = big military, advantage). 2. There is nothing but time. Don't jump hundreds of years at a time. Jump at smaller intervals. Divide the ancient times into prehistory, stone age, bronze age, iron age. Have some fun with nomadic civs for a while. Be a stone-aged Ghengis Kahn! The ancient times should be an era where certain aspects of the game (such as political organization, low-tech warfare, development of philosophy, climate-dependant cultures) are highlighted. In my opinion, the industrial-revolution mentality (that shadows the whole genre) should not be so prevalent yet. Cultures should not have to worry so much about developing the superconductor before 0AD. There's plenty of time for that stuff later.

I couldn't agree more. Many many things happened in history before the roman empire and even before the greek emipre. Especially in the middle east and far east cultures. Even in the Bible there are many wars mentioned.

Usually, unless I play on a small size map with 7 civs, by the time my units get to other nations I can already build elephants. And chariots, not to mention they are made too weak in civ 2, last for a short time. No enough time to wage serious wars. Most ancient wars I begin to fight with elephants (once every 4 games with chariots) and I finish them when I already have crusaders and knights.

Also about tweaks, how come in the world map, in the ancient world it takes lots of turns and because each turn is often 10 or more years, it takes almost centuries to get from the Carthage to Rome? I mean, in the real life it took only three years or so. And that was done the hard way (through the alps)!

[OrangeSfwr]

quote: Originally posted by Gord McLeod on 04-14-2000 07:13 PM Mine seems like a joke a lot of the time, but I'm often equipped with units so far beyond what my opponents are capable of building that the number of units is meaningless. I can't count the number of games where I've staged a "major offensive" using two units and obliterated several civs with them.

Yah I know what you mean, and that stupid list has me ranked dead last when I'm so advanced - my units destroy whole Civs!

Ok moving on, another problem with production is that Civ 2 production works on a ratio. I noticed that it will take as much time for a level 10 civ with 10 production shields to build a market place as a level one city with one production shield. It's rediculous! 10 production shields should mulitply production by 10!

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[This message has been edited by OrangeSfwr (edited April 16, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by OrangeSfwr (edited April 16, 2000).]

[OrangeSfwr]

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking on 04-17-2000 12:34 PM Orange - you must have 9 shield going to waste or unit support, because there is no such ratio. If you have 10 shields actually in production, you will build your market in 8 turns.... ...And a marketplace isn't just a physical facility - it repressnts the effort and time taken to develop enough recognition to bring in the trade. You think you can just set up some stalls and *poof!* venders will appear? That how I see it, anyway.

What I originally said was worded wrong, I guess I should've re-read what I said about the production. What I guess I was trying to point out is that a city at a high level should be able to produce things faster than a level one city, whether or not there are enough "shields". There are more people and therefore more workers to complete the task. Before industrialization and factories, this can be a problem.

I also understand what you're saying about the marketplace being a center of trade. That does make sense, but it doesn't change the fact that it can be produced rather quickly. (Replace Marketplace with Library and you'll see my gripe)

Maybe the success of a marketplace should be determined by the city's size. The marketplace should produce more money depending on the size of your city. (e.g. Level 1 city, increases tax revenue by 10%, level 10 increases tax revenue by 50%, level 20 increases tax revenue 100%, and increasing in incriments of 5%)

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[MidKnight Lament]

quote: Originally posted by The And a marketplace isn't just a physical facility - it repressnts the effort and time taken to develop enough recognition to bring in the trade. You think you can just set up some stalls and *poof!* venders will appear?

Dead right. I have the same gripe about people who think building one supermarket (or library or bank or whatever) in a city isn't enough. They think one supermarket can't service a city. But it's what the supermarket represents. It's not just physically one building.

- MKL

[tniem]

quote: Originally posted by MidKnight Lament on 04-17-2000 08:05 PM Dead right. I have the same gripe about people who think building one supermarket (or library or bank or whatever) in a city isn't enough. They think one supermarket can't service a city. But it's what the supermarket represents. It's not just physically one building.

I agree, but shouldn't then a percentage of your population have to work in the city to work in the factories, libraries, marketplaces, etc.

I think that a great way to get rid of micromanagement would be in every city to say a percentage of the population working as farmers, a percentage working in buildings, mines, science improvements, etc. You could maximize one item and the game would figure the percentage needed to keep the city alieve or happy.

[The Mad Viking]

Orange - you must have 9 shield going to waste or unit support, because there is no such ratio. If you have 10 shields actually in production, you will build your market in 8 turns.

Slingshot - I agree more emphasis on ancient.

Everyone - But to do it properly, you will find plagues, crop failures, petty insurrections, pestilence etc. Progress in those days consisted of 1 step forward and one step back, over and over, until finally, two steps forward. Then one back, one forward, one back....

And a marketplace isn't just a physical facility - it repressnts the effort and time taken to develop enough recognition to bring in the trade. You think you can just set up some stalls and *poof!* venders will appear?

That how I see it, anyway.

[The Mad Viking]

A percentage of your population works at trade, some at food, some at production. You decide that, symbolically, by which tiles you work. When you move your workers onto the ocean and the silk square, you're putting more to work in markets, banks and stock Xs; put 'em on mines and forests, they're also going to the factory...

(How I see it)


As far as city size and market effects:
In a size 10 democratic city, your marketplace will earn you 5 or 10 extra gold; in a size 3 monarchy you may only get 1 to pay the upkeep cost with.

[MidKnight Lament]

Mad Viking - I agree. We already have control over that sort of thing. Perhaps a little indirectly, but we do.

- MKL