Espionage Screen

[MidKnight Lament]

Here's some thoughts already posted in the "Unconventional Warfare in Civ III" thread about an "Espionage Screen". This is a non-unit-based spy concept.

The thread was getting cluttered with about 4 different things, so we've broken them up. Note that a new thread has also been started for Corporations by Youngsun. Other things like ideas for Slavery can still be posted in the old thread.
[This message has been edited by MidKnight Lament (edited March 16, 2000).]

[MidKnight Lament]

quote: Originally posted by MidKnight Lament Oh, and about spies, I think there's room for improvement there too. I'm not sure that they should be units on a map either. I'd much rather see a "spy network" constantly trying to gather information from various civs by infiltrating their ranks. You could allocate a certain amount of funds towards maintaining this network. Perhaps there could me an overlay map on which you could place your spies. I believe this idea could add intricacies if used with a good diplomacy model and with the "internal politics" idea suggested in EC3.

[MidKnight Lament]

quote: Originally posted by Dienstag I haven't played/seen CtP, but I don't think I'd like most of the "unconventional warfare" units. You guys have some neat ideas, and I could write all night, but I think I'll try to expand on the idea of the "spy screen." My whole concept for the "spy screen" is pretty much just a developement of current Civ II screens, so you might see a resemblence. There should be a key (F3, for example) that brings up the Intelligence Minister screen. This screen contains (besides whatever appropriate data) a short list, a long list, some slider bars, and a button. The short list: This list has the countries which you are currently most concerned about. You can change this list at your convenience, it's just meant to make things easier. Clicking on any of the countries takes you to that country's Intel Window. Also for convenience, the names of civs you're at war with could be displayed in red. The long list: This is a list of every civ you are currently aware of (assuming Civ III has more than 7 civs). This is the slightly more tedious way of getting to any given civ's Intel Window. The slider bars: These allow you to modify how you spend the "intel budget." I'm assuming Civ III will have another screen somewhere that determines how much you spend on intel each year. Instead of tax/science/luxury, your choices will be whatever it is that Intel people spend money on. I suggest it include training, bribe money/"compensation", salaries, propaganda, plus whatever else someone can think of. The button: This takes you to the counter-intelligence screen, because I couldn't think of a better way to get there. This screen tells you who you know is spying on you, and lets you try to do something about it. I haven't thought a lot about this, but somehow you should be able to decide whether to try misinformation, disinformation (I think there's a difference, but I forget what), or just make their spies "disappear." you should be able to try to mislead the other civs into thinking any of the following: 1. Your military is stronger/weaker than it really is. This could be as specific as number of units, for example. 2. Your military readiness is higher/lower than it really is. 3. You (don't) have a certain tech. 4. Your attitude toward a certain civ is worse/better than it really is. 5. You are (not) currently building/researching/developing a certain wonder/tech/prototype. 6. Your economy is stronger/weaker than it really is. 7. Lots more stuff, but this is the basic idea... The Intel Screen: This screen tells you everything you think you know about a certain civ, what you think that civ knows about you, and what you're doing about it. There is the "intel file" on this civ which tells you all this; you can read through everything or just the sections you're interested in (military, tech, economy, etc...). There's also a mini-map of the country showing you which cities you have spies in. You can each spy specific orders or all spies together a set of priorities, such as: 1. Move to other city/come home. 2. Collect info on military/science/economy/etc... 3. Steal technical data/blueprints 4. Incite social unrest 5. Sabatoge communications/transportation/industry/etc... 5. Assassinate leader?!? 6. Hide 7. Try to detect enemy spies Each spy can attempt one of these things per turn. The more aggressive the option, the higher the chance of failure. Sometimes, even when they're not doing anything, a spy will simply disappear. This is the best I can do at the moment. I hope I did a half decent job describing my idea. There will have to be a way to increase/decrease the number of spies in each country as you hire more/change you're priorities. I'd also like to incorporate this with a whole system for non-human intelligence (spy satellites, listening posts, etc...). Anyway, that's my idea for a non-unit-based spy model.

[This message has been edited by MidKnight Lament (edited March 16, 2000).]

[MidKnight Lament]

quote: Originally posted by MidKnight Lament Dienstag - This is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking should be in an intelligence screen. I can't elaborate now, because I'm going to bed to recover (I'm a bit unwell at the moment), but keep those ideas coming. It's good stuff.

[This message has been edited by MidKnight Lament (edited March 16, 2000).]

[MidKnight Lament]

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking MKL (great handle, great thread) I've given quite a bit of thought to spies lately, regarding counterintelligence. But apparently not as much thought as Dienstag! Excellent work! I agree completely that espionage would work better as a screen. It should be difficult to establish your first spies in each civ, a little easier to spread them between cities. I agree that a percent of your budget should be allocated to "intelligence" including espionage and propaganda. I think that spies should give their reports with a confidence factor - a probability that their information is correct- although for "non-vet" spies even the confidence factor could be wrong. In general, spies should still give mostly accurate information most of the time. It would put a lot more spice into attacking a city. Ironic that you can tell exactly what's in an enemy city half-way across the map, even without an embassy for that civ - but you can't tell whats below that catapult in the stack outside your city walls! And guess what? Eliminating the units means that a single Mata Hari will no longer be able to conceal ten armoured divisions on a railway through open plains in the heart of heavily occupied enemy territory!

[This message has been edited by MidKnight Lament (edited March 16, 2000).]

[MidKnight Lament]

quote: Originally posted by lago Dienstag's ideas deal with something that I found mildly annoying in Civ2, namely that information from Spies is always completely accurate. It may not tell you everything, but what it does tell you is guaranteed correct. This sounds like a good way to allow you to deceive (and be deceived) and I hope Firaxis includes something like this. Other factors, like governments and trade, would have an effect on intel. If you have lots of foreign trade or multi-national corporations (however that is implemented), your overall intelligence abilities should improve. Communist and Fundamentalist governments should be more difficult to penetrate than Democracies, etc.

[This message has been edited by MidKnight Lament (edited March 16, 2000).]

[MidKnight Lament]

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Wow, I i spent a lot of time thinking about my vision of espionage and then comes Dienstag and explains his vision, which is similar to my own but he apparently has spent much more time thinking aobut it and expanding it. Very well done, Dienstag! I also think we should some how encorporate Mad Viking's suggestions about veterans and non veterans. ...

[This message has been edited by MidKnight Lament (edited March 16, 2000).]

[MidKnight Lament]

quote: Originally posted by MidKnight Lament Excellent ideas, all! Perhaps I should have started a few different threads. I think an espionage screen could be really cool in Civ3. To add to all those ideas mentioned before, I think you should be able to bribe a foreign spy to work for you. The foreign civ would still believe that they owned the spy, but they wouldn't. That spy could then gain much information from the foreign civ from you. In this way, you'd have to be wary about the spies you had. There should be some sort of rating (loyalty?) for each spy (perhaps dicatated by how much you pay them) which determines how easily they can be bribed. Would you rather have 5 very loyal spies and get relatively accurate intelligence information, or would you be happier to have 10 spies who are not as trustworthy so that you can gain information about more cities? Should you be able to move spies from city to city as you wished? (To enable you to get the most effective information from the most important cities). Or should there be penalties for moving spies around? Would it take them a certain number of years before they were effective in a city? The Mad Viking - Thanks I like yours too. Actually, I've probably played CTP as the Vikings more often than any other civ.

[This message has been edited by MidKnight Lament (edited March 16, 2000).]

[MidKnight Lament]

quote: Originally posted by Dienstag Thanks everyone for the praise and criticism of my spy-screen proposal. It seems to have brought out many good ideas by others, such as Mad Viking's confidence factor, lago's effect of trade and government ideas, and many others. I'd be happy to try to compile these ideas into a comprehensive idea of espionage, but I've got Finals coming up (should be studying or sleeping now) and as MKL aluded to, this was a thread on "unconventional warfare."

There, all done now. I was waiting for someone post something in this thread before I was done, to make me look silly, but it looks like I got through

I think this is a really good idea. Post away!

[Slingshot]

Assuming Firaxis is listening, I think we could best help them incorporate this great idea by nailing out a complete list of spy options. When that's done, the next best thing would be to hammer out the logic.

Obviously, spies in Civ II gave completely accurate information because programming the shades of grey must be a nightmare!

So the two broad categories are:
1. (Opponents civ/Your civ) has (greater/lesser) (military/tech/economic/reputation) strength than actual. This could be reflected in modifications to the powergraph. Eg. Each player sees the true powergraph through modifiers. The modifiers are affected by the amount of production/gold that supports a player's trade and intelligence efforts.

2. Spies can do one of ____ tasks, as outlined in Dienstag's post (second from the top).
[This message has been edited by Slingshot (edited March 16, 2000).]

[raingoon]

Wow! Nothing much to say other than to second the Espionage Screen. Oh, btw, there is a difference between misinformation and disinformation. Me thinks it lies in the intent of the giver of the information. Misinformation is simply false information, though not necessarily intended as such.

However, misinformation given with the specific intent to manipulate the receiver into believing in a false construct as though it were true is called "disinformation." For instance, information leaked by the Allies in WWII to convince the Germans that the invasion would be in Norway was disinformation. It's a square can be a rectangle but not the reverse sorta deal.

Unless I'm mistaken, I think that's it.

[Theben]

M. Lament- You could have copied the entire thing and then posted it in one or two posts, and not have had to worry about others messing up the continuation of your thoughts.

As for the point of the thread, I feel obligated to support it.

[MidKnight Lament]

Theben - My apologies if I've done something wrong. I thought it may have been easiest for people to understand who said what if i put it in seperate posts. I was unsure how copying the whole thing would have turned out.

Slingshot - Sounds good.

- MKL

[Urban Ranger]

If you have played either MoO or Birth of the Federation before, you know the intelligence operations in these games are controlled via a screen somewhat similar to the one descibed in this thread.

The intelligence screen is good because it adds more to the civ feel instead of "collections of city states" feel.

I suggest the following:

1. The intelligence budget is to be divided between intelligence (used against other civs) and counterintelligence (internal security) operations.

2. The success chance of your agents is modified by things such as tech and SE.

3. There is a small chance to recruit enemy spies to become your double agents. Then again, they maybe just pretending to work for you

4. Likewise, your agents might become double agents for an enemy.

5. Counterintelligence should normally be just stopping enemy agents from stealing your information. However, if an enemy agent is discovered, you should be given the option of: 1. Recruiting him 2. Giving him disinformation or 3. Making him disappear.

6. You must train your initial spies, but then they can be sent into enemy territory to recruit more.

7. There is a chance for your spies to recruit more in enemy cities. The success chance is a function of the happiness of that city: the greater the happiness, the less likely you will find somebody who is willing to betray her own country. Specialists have the least chance of turning into an agent, followed by happy citizen, content citizen, and drones. Drones rendered content by martial law have double the chance of turning into enemy agents.

What do you think?
[This message has been edited by Urban Ranger (edited March 17, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Urban Ranger (edited March 17, 2000).]

[Harel]

The entire list of possible spy operations, thanks to my summary:

3.1 Investigate city: allows the player to see, for one turn, the management of the enemy city. The entire city radii, what building it has, and the popultion distribution.
3.2 Establish ambsassy ( serves to give you key statistics on enemy civ every turn ).
3.3 Military status: see the positions of all the units which belog to the city, even those that are outside in the field right now.
3.4 Steal map: gain the empire map. Without tile improvements or units locations.
3.5 Get secret intel: see 4.4.
3.6 Get political information: learn some of the political movements / agreements / trades / treaties the enemy nation signed in the last turns. Covert treaties, like declaring war and such are more important to obtain.
3.7 Learn crimes commited: learn what atrocities this nation commitied, unknowningly to anyone else.
3.8 Sway away unit: pay X amount, and the targeted enemy unit become yours. The expreince level of the operator increase the chance, by high unit morale, exp and proper SE options reduce the chance. Only for Infantry, or other cheap units. If it's a costly unit, its consideres a "war-time operations". Also, it's only applies for manned unit.( For missiles, see 3.24 )
3.9 Steal technolgy. A spy shouldn't be able to steal a technology far above thier current tech tree
status. Even when a technology is stolen, thier should be a delay before you can construct the various improvements obtained from the stolen technology.
3.10 Steal blue-print: get the design of a certain unit ( if the project idea is used, see units thread ).
3.11 Steal money: the cost of operations must always be higher then what is gained by the process. The advantge is that it drains the treasure of the enemy.
3.12 Steal goods: for a certain turn, a certain amount of shields from the enemy city is moved to your nearest city ( or spy home city ), and boost production.
3.13 Damage unit: reduce unit health by 50%, and cripple it ( can't move for X turns ). The morale level of the unit is also reduced to the lowest level ( not exp, however ). The operator unit is destroyed.
3.14 Cause revolt: has a low chance the city will revolt. Still cheaper and with higher chance then a succesful bribing.
3.15 Nuclear deployment: see the positions of all the nukes in the civ, or atleast parts.
3.16 Rescue operator: if an operator has failed in it's mission, it caught and may be rescued for X turns.
3.17 Donate to terrorists: create an AI raider spy which will work against the city itself. Reduce the danger from yourself, but it cost a lot and the terrorist is less capale then your own operator.
3.18 Donate to criminal ( see economics thread for pirates ): you may donate money which goes directly to the pirates AI, which can then harrass the enemy even more.
3.19 Raid trade route: steal a low amount of money off any trade routes, or caravans, moving near you.
3.20 Sneak in supplies: only cities that are under vassal or autonomy status can be targeted thus ( see 7.1 ). Increase the chance the AI will support your request to breakaway. Cost food and money. ( see 11.4 for effects ).
3.21 Disarm unit: make a mechincal unit disarm itself, meaning it won't be able to fight in combat ( missiles will just explode, doing no damage ). However, this can only be found out after the the unit has allready fired. If the unit survives somehow, the unit will fix itself after a single turn.
3.22 Bribe a city: pay X amount, and the city is yours. However, you can't bribe a city which has military units in it, and the more resilent the enemy civ is ( set by her social engineering options ), the bigger the change the operation will fail alltogher. Cost of bribing, and chance of mission acomplishment also depends on the number and quality of the military units in the city, and the morale of the people of the citizens. All around, the morale should effect the cost of bribing more then anything else.
3.23 Nuke a city: acts just like a nuke hit the city, however with less pollution ( more advance bomb, if it's that small ), and bypassing SDI defence. However, a key observation was made: the cost of nuking a city must be higher then the cost of a normal nuke ( reasonable, isn't it? ).
3.24 Pollute/Poison water: reduce city popultion.
3.25 Destroy city building.
3.26 Steal nuke/missile: allows you to steal any un-maned that are sitting in a city ( like missiles and nukes ).
3.27 Kill nation leader ( only in capitol city ). Throws the entire nation to revolt, for a turn or two.
3.28 Destory trade route: destroy a trade route of the enemy, and kill all caravans on it.
3.29 Plant virus: plant a virus that spreads along the trade routes. Damage is set by the medical level fo the attacked civ.