Shouldn't science come from taxes?

[The diplomat]

Does anyone find it interesting that in all civ games, the player allocates gold either to taxes or science or luxuries?

Shouldn't science and luxuries come from taxes? In other words, it should be the money that you get in taxes that goes go to science and luxuries. After all, that is what taxes are for, right?

Instead, it is actually the money that does not go to taxes, that goes to science. Weird

I realize that civ is not suppose to be 100% like real life. I am not neccessarily advocating changes or anything. I realize that this is how it has always been done.

I was just wondering if anyone knew why it is done this way.

[khyron]

See, I've always liked the tax slider, because to me, you had your government stickin its fingers in and taking its cut, while the rest was for advancing your civ scientifically, or for the people to consume for their happiness. And that these other things occurred without intervention from your palace/throne room. (Of course, I'm one of those people that still believes in the "Invisible Hand" at work, so sue me for my laissez-faire attitude. ) I've started observing it in the way you suggest, though, with Civ 3, because of the way the sliders work. There is no Tax slider as in the other two games. Implicit in that, at least to me, is the idea that all things not taxes in this game spring from an allocation of funding from the government. And like you, I'm not going to demand that they put that tax slider back, because in my case, ideology can stuff it while I'm playing. (Neither am I looking to start a political/ideological flame war, so put your flamethrowers down now. ) It's just a game, nothing serious. Interesting observation though.

[Chronus]

I already see science as something that is coming out of taxes. Let me put it this way . . . put your "tax rate" at 100%. That amount is the amount of taxes your empire collects. Now boost your science rate to 10%. You now have 10% of your taxes going to science (government research or whatever you want to call it). The remaining 90% is a . . . what's the word? Oh, yeah . . . surplus.

**WARNING**
A surplus in government spending is a foriegn idea to those of us who live in the USA. Please be understanding.
**END WARNING**

Get my point? Or am I missing your point?

[Willem]

Re: Shouldn't science come from taxes?

Originally posted by The diplomat
Does anyone find it interesting that in all civ games, the player allocates gold either to taxes or science or luxuries?

Shouldn't science and luxuries come from taxes? In other words, it should be the money that you get in taxes that goes go to science and luxuries. After all, that is what taxes are for, right?

Instead, it is actually the money that does not go to taxes, that goes to science. Weird

I realize that civ is not suppose to be 100% like real life. I am not neccessarily advocating changes or anything. I realize that this is how it has always been done.

I was just wondering if anyone knew why it is done this way.

What on earth are you talking about? Of course science is coming from taxes! Last I looked, there's only two sliders, Research and Luxuries, both of which get paid for from the amount of revenue your empire draws in. Which can be considered taxes. Whatever's left ends up in your treasury.

Where exactly do you see an issue with this arrangement? Or are you still playing Civ II and not III? I don't mean to sound antagonistic here, but it seems to me like you're playing a different game than I am.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Chronus
**WARNING**
A surplus in government spending is a foriegn idea to those of us who live in the USA. Please be understanding.
**END WARNING**

Get my point? Or am I missing your point?

You know, we used to have a surplus, back before they came up with the income tax scam.......

[Willem]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb


You know, we used to have a surplus, back before they came up with the income tax scam.......

Oh give me a break! If it wasn't for income tax the US would never have been able to out spend the USSR, and put an end to the Soviet Union. The money had to come from somewhere.

Personally, I would like to have seen that cash go towards alleviating poverty and injustice around the world, but unfortunatley you Yanks aren't that enlightened yet.

Besides, you guys were showing a fairly healthy surplus before George W. came to power.

[khyron]

Originally posted by Chronus
**WARNING**
A surplus in government spending is a foriegn idea to those of us who live in the USA. Please be understanding.
**END WARNING**

Many of the legislators in our government have law degrees, and are/were lawyers. Now, wasn't it Shakespeare that has a quote attributed to him about what we should do with lawyers...?

[The diplomat]

Re: Re: Shouldn't science come from taxes?

Originally posted by Willem
What on earth are you talking about? Of course science is coming from taxes! Last I looked, there's only two sliders, Research and Luxuries, both of which get paid for from the amount of revenue your empire draws in. Which can be considered taxes. Whatever's left ends up in your treasury.

We just have a different way of looking at things. You see the total amount of gold all your cities are producing as being your tax revenue. Thus, the science and luxuries do come from taxes. I see the gold all your cities produce as being your economy.
In civ3, your interpretation makes sense, since there is no tax slider anymore.

In civ2, there was a tax slider. So, I naturally always interpreted the tax slider as being your tax revenue. Thus, the science and luxuries were not coming from taxes!

I would like to note that the mechanisms in civ2 and civ3 are exactly the same. Civ3 gets rid of the tax slider saince it was totally redundant. But the mechanism is the same in both games!

Originally posted by Willem
Where exactly do you see an issue with this arrangement? Or are you still playing Civ II and not III? I don't mean to sound antagonistic here, but it seems to me like you're playing a different game than I am.

I am playing civ3, of course!

Like I said in my opening post, I have no problem with the civ3 arrangement. I was just trying to start an interesting discussion, that's all!

[narmox]

Or like in CTP..

You got money from your cities. Then that money went to pay improvements, tithes (if you had cities converted to other civs' religion), etc. Then what was left was split between science and surplus.

[kmill25]

Originally posted by Willem
Besides, you guys were showing a fairly healthy surplus before George W. came to power.

But anyways. I look at it like this. There is 100% taxation. The Gov takes it all.

If you raise the Science bar you have devoted that % to reasearch.

Now by raising the luxuries bar you have just given the people a tax cut. Which in turn makes them happy and more productive.

So lets say under a Monarchy. The King takes all that the people earn. He gives 40% to the scientists to increase their knowledge, and he keeps the rest for himself and the Kingdom.

Then the people are upset, they have learned of this new thing call "The Republic". The king is ousted, but under fair elections he is still the leader. So, he still takes 100% of what you earn and gives 40% to the scientists. And then he announces a 10% tax cut, giving it back to the people.

[seano1]

City’s produce “commerce”, which can be used for research, give you gold or make people haply. You always control how commerce is allocated. Government type olny influences how much is produced.

You have to remember that Civilization is more of a God game then a government simulator. You’ve probably also noticed that you live for over 6050 years and never fall from power no matter how many revolutions you’ve have.

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by seano1
City’s produce “commerce”, which can be used for research, give you gold or make people haply. You always control how commerce is allocated. Government type olny influences how much is produced.

Yeah, I know how the game works.

Originally posted by seano1
You have to remember that Civilization is more of a God game then a government simulator. You’ve probably also noticed that you live for over 6050 years and never fall from power no matter how many revolutions you’ve have.

Yes, that is one cute little unrealistic quirk!

[Zanthis]

Oh give me a break! If it wasn't for income tax the US would never have been able to out spend the USSR, and put an end to the Soviet Union. The money had to come from somewhere.

The USSR is gone but I'm still giving half my income to the goverment

Personally, I would like to have seen that cash go towards alleviating poverty and injustice around the world, but unfortunatley you Yanks aren't that enlightened yet.

The US spends most of its Tax revenue on welfare and social programs, consquently we have some of the wealthiest poor on earth

[Willem]

Originally posted by Zanthis

The USSR is gone but I'm still giving half my income to the goverment

Well somebody has to pay for that ridiculous strategic defence system Bush is so proud of. How many billions is that going to cost again? Besides, it's obviously more important for the multi-million dollar corporations to get tax breaks, rather than the common worker.

The US spends most of its Tax revenue on welfare and social programs, consquently we have some of the wealthiest poor on earth

I hate to burst your bubble, but the US has the lowest spending on social programs of any of the industrialized nations. I think you'll find that defence spending is by far the largest expenditure.

[Zanthis]

I hate to burst your bubble, but the US has the lowest spending on social programs of any of the industrialized nations. I think you'll find that defence spending is by far the largest expenditure.

actualy thats not true...

From the office of budget managment:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2003/bud34.html

Scroll down to table s-2 where it shows the total amount of money spent (outlays). The total spent on defence in 2002 was 336 billion dollars, compaired to non defense discretionary, social security, medicaid, etc... it comes out to about 1.5 trillion dollers, almost 5 times as much as defense spending!!!