Railroads are just ****

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

On the face of it, Sandman, I like your rolling stock Idea. The only problem I see is that, as you've described it, it might be open to some abuse.
What I think might work is to only count the number of railroad tiles that physically connect 2 or more cities in the rolling stock equation. Of course a better solution would be to make Civs pay maintainance for every tile that contains rail improvements. This will, hopefully reduce the abuse of RR's, regardless of what system is ultimately used (and eliminate RR sprawl-which is UGLY!!)
Another way of doing this, without Rolling Stock, is to give a RR square a "Capacity Rating". Simply put, this limits the number of units which can travel THROUGH (not onto) a square containing a RR (say 6-8/turn). In addition, a foot-unit might have a capacity of 1, for instance, wheras a tank or MA would have a capacity of 2 or even 3!! This, I feel, would elminate the problem you identified of disconnected RR contributing to empire wide Rolling stock, as it is calculated on a tile by tile basis. The only real problem I see is, as you said, will the AI know how to use it??

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

[ThePlagueRat]

Originally posted by notyoueither
PS. I really like how the general idea of how they have limited air transport (dependent on the number of cities with airports).

Yeah, that's the paradox. Air is limited, Rails are free.
In my opinion both should be limited, but given some bonuses to growth perhaps...

[Tattila the Hun]

Of-topic, but how do you think a population decrease when creating units (they gotta come from somewhere...) would affect the speed and flow of the game?

[Explorer579]

Solving the railroad problem with the Editor

I figured out and tested a solution with the editor. First, make railroads very difficult to build (e.g 50 turns). Next, create (or modify an existing unit) to make a train. A train requires coal and iron. It can move 6 tiles, which makes it 18 tiles through roads. It can transport 5 or more (it is up to you).

The end result: a game where workers can't build railroads fast enough, a train that can move foot units for 18 tiles on roads !

In my testing, I gave the train an attack of 0 and defense of 4 (immagine WWW I Turkish trains). The train could load and unload foot units. To do that, you have to check the unload in the Editor. You also have to check the "load only food units".

If you want to test it fast, go and modify the mobile armor unit and make it a train. Do not forget to uncheck the load button and check the unload button (just like a ship but a land-based transporter).

My test did not involve a full game. I will try it next but I wanted to report the idea. No more unlimited railroad moves for all units!

[Mad Bomber]

Re: Solving the railroad problem with the Editor

Originally posted by Explorer579
I figured out and tested a solution with the editor. First, make railroads very difficult to build (e.g 50 turns). Next, create (or modify an existing unit) to make a train. A train requires coal and iron. It can move 6 tiles, which makes it 18 tiles through roads. It can transport 5 or more (it is up to you).

The end result: a game where workers can't build railroads fast enough, a train that can move foot units for 18 tiles on roads !

In my testing, I gave the train an attack of 0 and defense of 4 (immagine WWW I Turkish trains). The train could load and unload foot units. To do that, you have to check the unload in the Editor. You also have to check the "load only food units".

If you want to test it fast, go and modify the mobile armor unit and make it a train. Do not forget to uncheck the load button and check the unload button (just like a ship but a land-based
transporter).

My test did not involve a full game. I will try it next but I wanted to report the idea. No more unlimited railroad moves for all units!

Let me get this straight. With your mod a foot soldier could move 18 tiles, but a mech Infantry, or tank would only move 2 (they could not move on the train with the Flag "only transports foot soldiers"). Hate to be blunt but this is perhaps the worst idea I have seen for RR's. Increased micromanagement, eliminate mobility for armor, and slow down the game even more than it already is. Your mod might be interesting to Saddam, who needs protection for MAs but you can count me out of this idea.

[Tiberius]

Make movement on RR cost money and you've solved the problem. People will use rails only when they really have to.

[Akaoz]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin How can you transport a cavalry division or a few dozen panzers by rail? It isn't practical.

Ermmm... Do you have any idea how difficult it is to move a tank over long distances without rail?

The Germans tried in Russia, and that didn't go to well.

A tracked vehicle will tear up normal roads, and break down a lot. Not to mention consume huge amounts of fuel compared to rail...

That said: I don't like teleporting rail either...

-Alech

[mrmitchell]

I imagine they could send panzers/cavalry by rail...they send enough things...I dunno...

I like railroads the way they are. They're plenty realistic enough (as it does not take more than 1 year to cross the country, as someone else said.)

[Gen.Dragolen]

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun
Of-topic, but how do you think a population decrease when creating units (they gotta come from somewhere...) would affect the speed and flow of the game?

Tattila,

I've tested mods with a population cost for the units and it slows things down a little so that wonders that would have been finished by 500BC were getting done by 500AD or later.

It doesn't slow down the AI's expansion any, but it does limit the number of units in play.

What it did hit home from a modding PoV, was that many improvements and wonders were too easy to build both in terms of resources and requirements. For example, to build the Great Library, I would make having a library already a prerequisite, and a harbour a prerequisite for the Great Lighthouse.

Getting back on topic for this thread, since it took about 20 years to fully link British Columbia to Nova Scotia in Canada, making it ridiculously hard to build railways won't work well.

I think that if the editor can be made to cooperate, all a railway should do is give a bonus to trade and/or production for a city, the same way the happiness bonus from luxury resources comes into effect when the city is connected to the capital. If the railway offers no other bonus, you can leave the movement as unlimited, and there won't be a point to covering the map with rails. Just a simple connection will do.

This would greatly affect game balance and make it necessary to adjust the effects of tile improvements and buildings to compensate since you wouldn't be making enough gold. Railway Tycoon uses building improvements to increase the revenue of each train that passes through, so if you add a train station, a hotel, railyards etc... it would increase the gold generated.

Another point to consider is that this would make trade much more important since trade was the main driving force behind industrialization and railways. Move more goods and people to increase profits. If you increase the gold generated by having a port and trainstations, and you have another driving force to build improvements to better your economy.

I'll have to see what I can do with the editor, but this is a major change to the way the game will play. You may not be able to afford keeping 300+ units in the field even on the largest maps.


D.

[Gen.Dragolen]

Originally posted by Akaoz


Ermmm... Do you have any idea how difficult it is to move a tank over long distances without rail?

The Germans tried in Russia, and that didn't go to well.

A tracked vehicle will tear up normal roads, and break down a lot. Not to mention consume huge amounts of fuel compared to rail...

That said: I don't like teleporting rail either...

-Alech

Akaoz,

Just as a point of historical reference, my grampa was an officer in a Panzer division at the opening of Operation Barbarossa. The division started with 310 tanks and after covering 600 km in a week, they were down to 5 working tanks. Not a single combat casualty, all were mechanical breakdowns.

For that reason, the logistics tail in a tank unit is about 10 times the number of men in a tank crew. Only aircraft need more maintenance and repair to keep them working. From the mechanics to the armourers and drivers bringing fuel, ammo and food to the clerks recording it all, it's like a small city on the move.

Imagine if we had to contend with keeping supply lines open...


D.

[Explorer579]

Re: Re: Solving the railroad problem with the Editor

Originally posted by Mad Bomber

Let me get this straight. With your mod a foot soldier could move 18 tiles, but a mech Infantry, or tank would only move 2 (they could not move on the train with the Flag "only transports foot soldiers"). Hate to be blunt but this is perhaps the worst idea I have seen for RR's. Increased micromanagement, eliminate mobility for armor, and slow down the game even more than it already is. Your mod might be interesting to Saddam, who needs protection for MAs but you can count me out of this idea.

My train cannot move big tanks! I haven't seen a train that can carry big tanks in real life. So I limited mine to carryng soliders. However, you can build a more costly train that can move tanks and mech infantry. The idea is to have a game that simulates logical lines of supply.

[Jaybe]

Re: Re: Re: Solving the railroad problem with the Editor

Originally posted by Explorer579
My train cannot move big tanks! I haven't seen a train that can carry big tanks in real life. So I limited mine to carryng soliders. However, you can build a more costly train that can move tanks and mech infantry. The idea is to have a game that simulates logical lines of supply.

The M1 Abrams (the graphic model for Modern Armor) is wide and it is heavy. The US Army can only rail it on well maintained rails and there are other restrictions -- they take CARE.

OTOH, the M1 is moved, and for sure you wouldn't see it taking long travels on roads in this country! For extended travels, railroads are still definitely the way to go.

--
I have taken away modern armor's ability to be airlifted.

[Mad Bomber]

The way to supply a modern army even in the twenty-first century is by rails. Trucks are great for moving small amounts of cargo but when you are moving heavy equipment such as a 70 ton main battle tank then you are forced to move these by rail. Rail is the cheapest and heaviest mover of equipment to this day for cross country travel.

For those of you advocating eliminating the production bonuses for railroads keep in mind that these represent the increased ability for people in cities to produce goods and for farmers to get goods to market. Civ 2 represented this with the supermarket/ farmland/ superhighways improvements that were eliminated in civ 3. Also giving increased values to tiles to compensate will change the ancient era too much to be of practical benefit.

Jaybee:

The M1A1 can be airlifted by C-5's but I do think that a unit should be created (and built) to be able to airlift these monsters.

[mrmitchell]

Solution!

I kind of skimmed the forums, but how about this:
EDIT: I mean, I kind of skimmed this thread, this thread.

Two kinds of RRs:
-Regular RRs: Take same no. of turns to build; just can only transport foot units. (Of course, they still give the food/production/commerce/whatever bonuses.)
-High-Maintanence RRs: Take 1.5, 2, or 3 times as many turns to build, but can carry anything regular CivIII RRs carry now. (Regular RRs are a prerequisite on that tile for High-Maintanence RRs.) Maybe the High-maintanence RRs can cost 1g/t too if necessary, to prevent people from just blanketing their nation with HMRRs after R-RRs. All these Rs are making me dizzy....

[mrmitchell]

Hey! I just noticed! Just hit Prince! Woohoo!



Or, we could have

the Teleporter: discovered with Future Tech 5 or 10 (although most people will beat the game by then), these can teleport any unit any where in your territory even over sea, INSTANTLY.

Or teleport your unit into another unit to kind of suicide-attack them