FIRAXIS: Please instill the AI with a sense of pity.

[Blake]

In SMACX, your AI pact mates would sometimes give you tech gifts, if you were weak and had a good reputation, and they were several techs ahead. Basically they pitied you, and gave you tech out of the goodness of their hearts.

They were however, fairly sensible about it. They wouldn't give you pity techs if:
They have recentely given you a gift (around 4 turns)
The tech has a un-built secret Project (wonder) associated with it.
You can be reasonably expected to pay for the tech (this shouldn't be mistaken with being able to pay for the tech by selling your right arm, left kidney and grandmother).

So they'll even give a gift if you CAN afford to pay, but are also very weak, so if the going price is 100 credits for the tech, and you have 200 credits, but are much weaker, they'll give you the tech and ask for nothing in return. IOW they are honorable enough not to take what meger possessions you do have.

You also can't *choose* what tech to recieve.

In Civ3 a game can get really hopeless. It'd be less hopeless if the AI had some human qualities such as pity and mercy.

The basic rules for choosing whether a pity gift is in order, for Civ3 would go somehing like this:
The AI must be several techs ahead of the player (more than two).
The player must be much weaker than the AI.
The player must be on good terms with the AI (never fought with the AI). The player must also not be snuggling up to the AI's enemies.
The player must have a good reputation.
The player must not have recentely received a gift (from that AI).
Agression should also play a part (less agressive AI's should be more keen to give pity gifts)
The AI should gift a tech with comparitvely little trade value.

Also, the AI should only give a gift when the Human makes an effort to trade ie there shouldn't be a option for "request gift" instead the AI will spontaneously offer the gift.


I'm pretty sure this wouldn't break the game, because The Rules would prevent a player from ever surpassing an AI on the basis of it's gifts, it would only serve to make a hopeless situation less hopeless. It would also infuse the AI with a much needed glimmer of humanity (and in that regard, the SMAC AI leaders are lightyears ahead of the Civ3 AI.)

[Carver]

You raise a good point. But it looks like for Civ3 the developers wanted to make the game as difficult as possible, apealing to hard core gamers who blew away SMAC/X at Transcend. I too think it would be nice for the AI to show pity. Perhaps this could be included in a more diverse agressiveness slider in the editor where the least agressive civs would give pity to the pityful.

However, the realism watchdogs may not like this. Until very recently I don't think there are many examples of nations showing pity on one another. Did the European colonizers show pity on Native Americans? ...not that pity was necessarily warranted. No, they used their technology to grind the Native Americans into the dirt.

Overall, I like your idea and think Civ would be more civilized with your suggestion. But Firaxis based the game on a might makes right paradigm. States truly have no friends in Civ, only intrests.

[Venger]

Nations show each other pity only when it is to their advantage. When conflicts arise, that all goes in the crapper.

The English and French helped Native American tribes, as did the Colonies, when it suited them, against the Spanish, against each other. When the United States was formed, and the colonial powers faded from America, the reason to show pity was gone, and the natives were crushed.

So goes the world.

Venger

[Lord Merciless]

In Civ3, you can launch an assault on AI civ, and after taking a few cities from them, you can literally blackmail them giving up all their tech advantages. If you do this often, you inadverdently end up on the top.

Playing the psychotic bastard is the way to go in Civ3.

[Blake]

Oh I know you can extract tech from AI's with force and arm-twisting. I just think there should be a way without having to beat up your neighbours. Gifting would also provide a suvival mechanism for stronger peacenik civs. Provide avenues of play other than taking tech with force.

The motivation (advantage, if you please) is generally that the gift-reciever will feel indebted, thereby making them a sturdy ally when they are bought up to speed. I do this sorta thing all the time, I admit it doesn't always work (especially with AI's) but that's a risk and one I'm willing to take. It can also provide appeasement to prevent the weaker civ from becoming desperate and resorting to (what should be) desperate means.

Question: You are an underdog, there are two other civs. One laughs at your plight, the other gives you gifts of tech to help you in your time of need. Eons later you have caught up with the two civs, which civ will you favor trade with, and which will you eradicate?

Playing the psychotic bastard is the way to go in Civ3.

This is also a peev of mine. Your pretty much expected to be a psychotic bastard. And the AI's are like fully automated mechanised psychotic bastards. It's not like making (some of) the AI's a little more 'nicer' would reduce the fun of the bastards (whom get to gleefully cackle about the gullibility of the gift giving civ). But it would make it more enjoyable for the more peaceful players.

A real life examples is USA and USSR arming weaker nations, in exchange for loyalty. And thats really how it works, you give a gift now, and the payment is in the form of future loyalty.

[Lord Merciless]

Civ3's biggest flaw is that it penalizes you for playing peacefully and nicely.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Civ3's biggest flaw is that it penalizes you for playing peacefully and nicely.

I agree. Because I play a complete builder style, and it's impossible to play on higher levels because the AI is so aggresive. I would love it if they programmmed the Ai to be "kinder".

Thats why I love this idea

[Solver]

The idea is really good, and yes, it is hard to play peaceful, but all in all, the AI can't have mercy, as it's not human .

[Jon Shafer]

Would the human player simply have 'pity' on one of the AI players just because? Of course not. Firaxis knows this, and they didn't want to give the AI a disadvantage since it would be offering gifts with no strings attached, while the miserly human player would be cackling all the way to the real estate bank.

[Solver]

What Trip says, though sometimes I do have pity for no reason .

[Ribannah]

I'm happy enough with research and prices being cheaper once other civs have already acquired the knowledge.

That said, I've been able to buy Music Theory for only $10.
Of course, that was after JS Bach's Cathedral had been built.

What I would like though is a civ's attitude towards you having SOME influence on trade rates. But: it would have to be vice versa, so that your friends expect better deals from you, too (or they will stop being your friend).

[NeoStar]

It is a personal thing-I once found myself surrounding a underdog civs last city with soldiers to protect it, no reason of course. The odd thing was I had signed a ROP with it and it never was needed to be renewed/canacelled.

Anyway, we all want a more 'human' AI-for pity and it'd be nice if they acknowledged for once they were dead meat once you got them cornered. They never drop the pride

[Mr. President]

Is there any way to make the computer player more pacifist? You used to be able to do that in Alpha Centauri (I set all the factions to -1 aggression to create favorable worlds for builders like me).

[vondrack]

Well, this is definitely a good point. Although I would not call it "instilling the AI with a sense of pity", but "making the AI even more cunning".

Here is what I have in my mind: I, too, give techs away for free to hopelessly small AI civs. Somtimes just because I feel sorry for them, but mostly because by helping them, I am making the life of my serious opponents more difficult.

If there is a small civ or two stuck on a continent with one larg(er) one, I will often even give techs away simply to make the small ones stronger and more difficult to destroy for the large one. I may need allies one day...

I would probably be a bit offended if Cleo come to me and offer Free Artistry just because she'd consider me hopelessly behind... So, what I suggest is making the AI understand the concept of "helping the enemies of my enemy". While instilling the sense of pity might be difficult, instilling this concept might be easier.

[opaque]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Civ3's biggest flaw is that it penalizes you for playing peacefully and nicely.

True, but the fact that the AI was never agressive in CTP2 and that you were encouraged to play peacefully and nicely was one of the most complained about things with the game I thought. Then it was considered a dumb, not unagressive AI, and playing peacefully was somewhat boring.