Culture Flipping:

[Cyclotron]

Venger, simply because we support a game feature you do not does not make Tassadar, myself, or any other person "cheerleaders" or "fanboys," and it most certainly does not give you the right to insult us on the basis of our opinions.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Venger


Palestine? Tell me, who has dibs on the area? Go back far enough and you can have 20 different ethnic groups claim it.

And no, there is no 'culture flip' in Israel/Palestine. The territory of the Holy Land is held by one thing and one thing alone - brute force.

And the opressed people are resisting and fighting against, which could be represented and interpruted as a "culture flip".

No. Culture flipping is STUPID. It's ahistorical and anathema to common sense. I would suggest the issue of occupying armies has about 100 better forms of resolution before flipping. Flipping is nonsensical.

THEN DONT PLAY THE GAME. If you dont like culture flipping and if its seriously that bad, dont play the game at all.

Well Mr. JustGotHereInMay,

What does date have to do with anything? I think you've already proved for me that the date that a person signed up on Apolyton has no bearing on the arguement.

I'm here because I PAID MONEY FOR THE GAME, and I'm exercising my right to free speech

But it sounds like you VENEMOUSLY hate it. Hate it to the point that you want to destroy Civ3 and murder Jeff. So why waste the time here when you could be going out buying another game that you do like.

something someone using the USSR as their avatar or point of origin likely knows precious little about.

What does that have to do with anything? If anything, I know more about freedom of speech since I've been denied it for quite a few years of my life. I dont take it for granted. Every day, I'm very thankful that I have it.

But I dont see what that has to do with anything in this arguement. It seems more like a bad attempt to make me look bad.

Were you looking for the Civilization III - Cheerleading section?

No, I didn't expect cheerleading, but I also didn't expect someone who hates Civ3 as much as you (apparently) do to be harassing people who DO like it, and to even be on the forums at all.

Yes, you are excersizing your right of freedom of speech. But if I hate something, I'm not going to talk about it on a forum. I wouldnt play it, I wouldnt talk about it, I wouldnt want to do anything with it. I personally would rather forget about it and move on.

I mean yeah, there are things about Civ3 that do annoy me. One of them being that when something culture flips, you lose your garrison. But I dont constantly complain about it. It's there, and since I like the game I'm just gonna have to deal with it.

But thats just me.

[Venger]

Originally posted by cyclotron7
Venger, simply because we support a game feature you do not does not make Tassadar, myself, or any other person "cheerleaders" or "fanboys," and it most certainly does not give you the right to insult us on the basis of our opinions.

No, you don't get to pull that crap, let's be REAL clear where the 'who's opinion doesn't belong' nonsense started, and that was with Mr. "WhyAreYouHere".

Venger

[ixnay]

I like culture flipping. The few times it has happened to me, I was mostly expecting it and it made sense.

[Venger]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000

And the opressed people are resisting and fighting against, which could be represented and interpruted as a "culture flip".

No, they are using bombs and terror to attempt to affect a political change. Their sheer will to have the Israeli's gone matters not one whit. Your example is poor, your support ineffectual. The West Bank will no more flip than any city in history. Move along.

THEN DONT PLAY THE GAME. If you dont like culture flipping and if its seriously that bad, dont play the game at all.

For a long time I didn't. See, before you showed up, there were a great number of discussions on this and many other topics related to the game. It didn't just all start when you showed up.

What does date have to do with anything? I think you've already proved for me that the date that a person signed up on Apolyton has no bearing on the arguement.

Bring an argument to the table that isn't based on 'so don't play it'. Because that's all you've got in your limp sack. I've addressed the point in the topic, Johnny Come Lately.

But it sounds like you VENEMOUSLY hate it. Hate it to the point that you want to destroy Civ3 and murder Jeff.

Boy they grow em big and dumb out on the farm huh? Murder Jeff? The rhetorical nonsense is ridiculous!

So why waste the time here when you could be going out buying another game that you do like.

I am not wasting my time here (in general). Why do you waste your time here when you can be playing that great game? See, stupid isn't it...

Either discuss the point at hand, or let the door smack your ass on the way out. Let's leave the 'why are you here' crap out of it.

What does that have to do with anything? If anything, I know more about freedom of speech since I've been denied it for quite a few years of my life. I dont take it for granted. Every day, I'm very thankful that I have it.

Then you should perhaps disassociate yourself with one of the most brutal regimes ever to stride the earth. Not alot of people here using the Third Reich as their calling card either, and with good cause...

But I dont see what that has to do with anything in this arguement. It seems more like a bad attempt to make me look bad.

An attempt at an aside. Using the USSR as your calling card makes you look bad pal.

No, I didn't expect cheerleading, but I also didn't expect someone who hates Civ3 as much as you (apparently) do to be harassing people who DO like it, and to even be on the forums at all.

Harassing people? What a baby. Do you need a diaper change? Harassing people who DO like it? Read the topic if you are even semi-fluent in English, the topic is 'culture flipping', and the content within is a discussion, pro and con. Nobody is harassing anyone, unless you count 'why are you here', which is STILL all you've brough to the table. Care to make a point soon?

Yes, you are excersizing your right of freedom of speech. But if I hate something, I'm not going to talk about it on a forum. I wouldnt play it, I wouldnt talk about it, I wouldnt want to do anything with it. I personally would rather forget about it and move on.

How many sheep are there in your flock? You wouldn't say anything about it? Well, that's where you and I differ, I will give my feedback, good or bad, in the community. If you've come here to give each other hugs and sing Kumbaya, you are going to be disappointed. Some people like the game more than others, some like certain features more than others, and some people will *GASP* dare speak their mind negatively on aspects they don't like.

I mean yeah, there are things about Civ3 that do annoy me. One of them being that when something culture flips, you lose your garrison.

Holy cow! You addressed the point! A stride taken forward...

But I dont constantly complain about it. It's there, and since I like the game I'm just gonna have to deal with it.

Then enjoy being one of the many fish battered on the rocks by the tides. Me, I'll struggle against the tide looking for a better outcome.

But thats just me.

Guess so.

Venger

[Nubclear]

*Sigh* I replied to nearly half of his post when I realized: I wont be able to change his mind. It's locked in its current state and I'm simply talking to a rock. So talking to him is completly POINTLESS, a waste of my time, and its spamming up the threads.

Anyway......

I personally like culture flipping. I usually build up my culture quite a bit and usually gain a few cities. Helps during war and peace. So IMO, culture flipping is one of the best game features.

But thats just my opinion

[Catt]

Originally posted by Venger


What a load of crap. You're telling me you garrison a size 1 city with 36 units? It's a SIZE ONE CITY.

What's your point? Is there a rule somewhere that a "SIZE ONE CITY" must be unflippable if garrisoned with x or y or z units? Did the Firaxis game designers violate this rule? I'm outraged.

God almighty have you ever played any other Civ style game?

Relevance? I thought we were talking about Civ III.

If I can take the city with three legions, I should be able to HOLD THE CITY with three legions.

Your opinion. I don't agree.

At what point did they commandeer your common sense?

What?!? If you read through DeepO's post (the guy you're quoting), you'll see that the entire post has to do with game functions -- the algorithms that produce results within the game parameters. You have somehow morphed DeepO's explanation of the how the algoritm worked into your own straw man in an attempt to display your own "superior" common sense.

How about a size one city with 9 Roman legions in it NOT FLIP AT ALL?

Interesting idea. Not the way the game works.

I've humored from the get-go of Civ3 the lengths you dimbulbs will go to defend Civ like some sacred cow.

Ah. Now I see. If we don't share your view then we're dimbulbs.

Culture flipping is unrealistic,

Another straw man. The game designers freely admit to taking widespread latitude with "realism" in favor of an entertaining game - their view as to what is entertaining - which will obviously not be shared by the entire gaming public.

unfun,

Your opinion. I don't agree.

and unreasonable.

Your opinion. I don't agree.

If the Indians can't hold the city, then they shouldn't get it back for free.

But they don't get it back for free. They get it back in exchange for the many shields that they've invested in building cultural improvements while the conquerers were spending shields on military units. Shields on military or shields on culture - either way, each side to the conflict is making an investment and hoping for a return.

Enough freaking said.

Yes. Again if someone doesn't agree with you then there's not much of a point on continuing the discussion.

And your lashing back at Tassadar in relation to his "membership date" is not the first instance I've seen from you recently -- you seem to hold the curious view that the fact that you registered with Apolyton some time ago lends strength to your arguments.

Catt

[Dinner]

I voted for that it is a part of the game; interestingly 28 out of 57 current votes are for that and only 2 (I assume corcle and venger) want to be ride of culture flipping all together. I like the idea of culture having an effect on the game but the current system leaves something to be desired.

A better way to work it would be to allow people immigraiting to culturally & economicly superior countries and for cities to rebell and not simply flip. Both of these would add realism and still allow the peaceful builder to have a way to improve his civ without war.

[MarkG]

4 days of vacation to Coracle (continued personal attacks) and Venger (flaming)

any discussion on this decision should be made in the Apolyton forum

carry on, thank you

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by MarkG
4 days of vacation to Coracle (continued personal attacks)

Dammit Markos, can you talk to the CFC staff about getting this done elsewhere?

[Nubclear]

I think it is awesome. It brings out the best of the espionage feature and demonstrates unequivocally that if you have enough money, you can buy just about anything.

What does it mean by 'espionage feature" and "have enough money'? Culture flipping involves none of these things!

[DeepO]

Thanks Markos, it was getting a bit too much. Now without wanting to profit from the situation that people can't answer, I just want to explain why I said the example was faulty (I feel I have the right to respond to the initial flame):

The cultural pressure on that town is very large, as there are 7 tiles within it's radius controlled by a foreign nation. Maybe the town itself is only size 1, but when nearly half of the surrounding farmland is controlled by the enemy, you can hardly speak of an unreal flip. That is game-mechanically speaking, wihtout any reference to the real world. I consider it a exageration to call it a 'size 1 city with 9 garrison flip' when in reality it is a 'size 8 city with 8 garrison flip'.

It is good to use examples to illustrate your points, but please make sure you don't grossly exagerate your wording... you only will lose credability.

DeepO

[Papa Chubby]

Personally I believe that Culture flipping is a neccessary implementation, if added realism and complexity is what is wanted. It is certainly a somewhat shallow representation of the whole concept of your empire consisting of individual entities with an heritage and a will of their own, but it is a step in the right direction.

Another thing that I would like to adress is that most of the numbers of men in the military units is abstract. All we know about this 1 Legion, is that it is 1 Legion. Though the town was 10.000 people, it is not so unrealistic to assume that these many people backed up with a countryside in revolt, angry at the mob of sheep herders that invaded their country (Less culture). Also if we are supposed to believe that the Legions are a simpel icon of their real historical strenght. Then we must consider that that quantity changed over history.

[DeepO]

Added to that: there are numerous examples irl where part of the garrison of a city was paid by the 'oppresor', but was from the same nationality as the citizens of the city. These troops can switch side quite easily, and in the event of a flip join the rebellion, causing a snowball effect that 'kills' all foreign troops in a few hours. I'm not saying that the real world should dictate what is purely a game mechanic, but there are plenty of examples for and against this 'flipping'

DeepO

[Iskandar Reza]

Originally posted by DeepO
Added to that: there are numerous examples irl where part of the garrison of a city was paid by the 'oppresor', but was from the same nationality as the citizens of the city. These troops can switch side quite easily, and in the event of a flip join the rebellion, causing a snowball effect that 'kills' all foreign troops in a few hours.

DeepO

With that, perhaps flips should also be determined by the amount of goold in tthe treasury. Add the formula (money in treasury - cost of units) too determine if a flkp is possible.


Does tht maake sense? I know what I wanna convey, I'm just too tired and haven't had enough ciggarettes to construct prooper sentencces.