Culture Flipping:

[Cort Haus]

Colonel D. ,

I like the idea of a gradual decline into resistance & revolt, with eventual guerillas, but do you really want those pesky partisans back? So-o-o-o tedious to place 20 units round each city before taking it.

Also, the spies & diplomats were too powerful in civ1 & civ2. People went around cheaply buying up rival civs and causing mayhem, and you ended up with needing a solid wall of units at the borders to stop them sneaking in and 'flipping' your city.

I take both your points, though some ideas might be rather complex to implement, and on the whole I don't miss partisans or spies. I like the laser-guiding spotters though

[Saurus]

I think the culture flips are part of fun and In most cases the flips functions well.

But there are problems!
The situations where several military units are lost in a flip are frustrating indeed but there are more severe situations the culture concept is malfunctioning.

I have experienced a situation where a city I had built early during the ancient era, with temple, library, coloseum, university and the GW great libary built, flipped over to the babylonias during the middle ages. Just two turns before this, I had proudly been watching the top5 city view, where my city, witch flipped, was number 2 on the list . (E.G the culturally second most influental city in the whole world!!).


Now I DO understand that a city that is compleatly supressed when it comes to culture, may flip, but that
the second most greatest city in the whole world flips in favor to the only city that has higher culture (by a few culture points at most) is EXTREAMLY annoying.

If a city has 2000 culture and another 100 - yes, a flip is validated but if the flipping city had 1990 culture - then ALSO flipping? ridiculous!

-S

[miccofl]

Now I DO understand that a city that is compleatly supressed when it comes to culture, may flip, but that the second most greatest city in the whole world flips in favor to the only city that has higher culture (by a few culture points at most) is EXTREAMLY annoying.

Could you post that save? That's unreal! As a frequent user of the "Initiate Propaganda" spy mission, I find it astonishing that the AI pulled this one off. I have spent thousands of gold trying to flip far lesser cities than that with a culture ratio of over 10:1. There is a random factor involved but you got screwed! What were the opposing government types? (Although with your cultural levels so close it shouldn’t matter.)

[whosurdaddy]

I think the problem is that culture flipping is a way too common event. Culture flipping should be a once in a while unlucky thing that happens to a player, not an almost given thing guaranteed to happen to a player who has decided NOT to raze or ethnically clense
(through starvation) conquered cities.

[Saurus]

Originally posted by miccofl



Could you post that save? That's unreal! As a frequent user of the "Initiate Propaganda" spy mission, I find it astonishing that the AI pulled this one off. I have spent thousands of gold trying to flip far lesser cities than that with a culture ratio of over 10:1. There is a random factor involved but you got screwed! What were the opposing government types? (Although with your cultural levels so close it shouldn’t matter.)

I don't have a save from that exact moment but I seemed to have a save from that same game during a later time (Industrial age).
The intresting city here is named "blurba" - It is found
on the main Island where both Me and the Babylonias reside.

Take into consideration the following:


1) The city that caused my city to flip (Ur or Uruk, can't remember) has been burned to ground long ago.
There is, however, a unused irrigated areas proving a city has existed relatively close to my city blurba.

2) My city witch flipped, but whitch I, of course, took back by military conquest, still has a very high culture level - despite the fact that all the culture improvements (most of witch were producing double culture at the time of flipping) had been destroyed during the flip.
(you can clearly see that all the culture buildings has been rebuilt becouse they culture output is low as the
buildings have barely been rebuilt)

You could for instance compare the current ammount of culture points in blurba to the neighbouring city named "lisk" witch was culturally weaker than "blurba" during the same time blurba flipped. Yet currently lisk is number 2 in top 5 cities. Blurba would have been extreamly strong, culturally, currently if the flip had not occured.

-S

[Saurus]

Originally posted by miccofl



Could you post that save? That's unreal! As a frequent user of the "Initiate Propaganda" spy mission, I find it astonishing that the AI pulled this one off. I have spent thousands of gold trying to flip far lesser cities than that with a culture ratio of over 10:1. There is a random factor involved but you got screwed! What were the opposing government types? (Although with your cultural levels so close it shouldn’t matter.)

ouch.. sorry, did not allow me to attach. The saved game is 1.71MB witch is too large for attachment appearantly. Any ideas?

-S

[whosurdaddy]

Originally posted by Saurus


ouch.. sorry, did not allow me to attach. The saved game is 1.71MB witch is too large for attachment appearantly. Any ideas?

-S

zip it using winzip

[Rasputin]

one thing many seem to overlook in this debate is that the city ddnt fight youe garrisons to regain control, but the culture of the city affects your garrison and they decide to no longer be part of your armies but disband themselves and peacefully join the other civ. This is not armed aggression , but simplly your own citizens waking upto the fact yuo have abused them for years keeping them culturally repressed.

Whenever I goto war I first check my Culture rating and choose to fight those civs close or less than my own. If the nation i wish to fight is greater culturally i first spend more time building more culture before launcing attacks.

[Rasputin]

PS .. I have never lost a single city to Culture Flip, and have won 90% of my games with a cultural victory...

[whosurdaddy]

Originally posted by Rasputin
PS .. I have never lost a single city to Culture Flip, and have won 90% of my games with a cultural victory...

Thats great for you ..... just cause you like it doesnt mean its a good idea .... hey, i know people who enjoy having hot wax dripped onto their nude bodies ....

[PGM]

Culture is one of the best things that ever happened to the Civ legacy.

[Saurus]

Originally posted by whosurdaddy


zip it using winzip

Should work now

-S

[Fredric Drum]

Culture flips of garrisoned cities does not happen in the real world. NEVER EVER. It has never happened, and it will never happen in the future. It's not POSSIBLE for citizens armed with saucepans to fight heavily armed soldiers.

And Rasputin: Your theory about troops of soldiers peacefully disbanding and joining the other side is also something that NEVER EVER happens in the real world.

Mind you - I have made no comment whatsoever on the game or whether or not culture flips are a good idea for a game or not. Just stating a fact.

And I'm not going to visit this thread again, so no use in flaming or arguing against the obvious

[vondrack]

Originally posted by whosurdaddy
Thats great for you ..... just cause you like it doesnt mean its a good idea .... hey, i know people who enjoy having hot wax dripped onto their nude bodies ....

Exactly. Just 'cause many people like it or don't dislike it does not mean it's a good idea. However, just 'cause several people hate it doesn't mean it is a bad idea either.

Rasputin made a VERY good point - I can imagine very well that my troops reach and "conquer" a city or get into the vicinity of an empire that impresses them so much that they feel less and less tied to my (culturally so much inferior!) empire... and they eventually resist a local rebellion in a very reluctant fashion or not at all... wishing to be rather part of an empire that gives them entertainment and education instead of swords, sweat and bloodshed. Is it that difficult to imagine? I mean... yes, I can think of the flip mechanics been implemented in a better way, but I am growing tired from reading the same complaints/arguments over and over.

BTW - has anybody else noticed that the "most outrageous" flips seem to happen in the ancient and medieval times, where the above mentioned IBCSMSE ("Impressed By a Culturally So Much Superior Empire") scenario makes much better sense than in modern times?

[Willem]

Originally posted by Fredric Drum
Culture flips of garrisoned cities does not happen in the real world. NEVER EVER. It has never happened, and it will never happen in the future. It's not POSSIBLE for citizens armed with saucepans to fight heavily armed soldiers.

Why do you presume that they only have sauce pans? It's not just the military that has access to weapons, many private citizens have them as well. The Swiss would be a good example. IIRC, their army is more or less a militia that can mobilize and arm themselves very quickly if they're attacked.