Breaking treaties

[miccofl]

All very good points, but could someone please explain this? I (the Americans) am/are the number one civ, all are cautious or polite to me (they should be, I’m paying them enough) and now the game is getting a little boring – time for a war. So I invade number two, get all my well paid “friends” to join in the fun by either an alliance or because we had an MPP and my enemy counter-attacked. I eliminate my adversary in a few turns (my allies never even fired a shot) and now everyone is annoyed and cannot be bought.

[alva]

@miccofl

I guess this is what Fitz is taking about

[vondrack]

Originally posted by miccofl
All very good points, but could someone please explain this? I (the Americans) am/are the number one civ, all are cautious or polite to me (they should be, I’m paying them enough) and now the game is getting a little boring – time for a war. So I invade number two, get all my well paid “friends” to join in the fun by either an alliance or because we had an MPP and my enemy counter-attacked. I eliminate my adversary in a few turns (my allies never even fired a shot) and now everyone is annoyed and cannot be bought.

Just kidding, but...

What would you expect them to do? They don't know which one of them is going to be your next victim... you clearly demonstrated what their future would be like... If I were them, I would also become annoyed!

[Fitz]

mic, if you eliminate #2, that puts you even further in advance of the (new) second ranked player. I'm not saying that is the way the mood works, but do you think it's possible ... ?

[jsw363]

Originally posted by dexters
Hewheheheh.

Theseus, I noticed that the AI stays on furious for a LONG time when you've captured on of their cities. This happened to me with the Japanese. I captured 2 cities, a Japanese island city off my coast a city on their mainland. I joined ALL the japanese workers I've captured into the city I was about to leave and gave it to japan. They accepted, but remaiend furious. It wasn't until something like 30 or heck maybe 50 turns later that they became annoyed.

I gave a French city to the Greeks and they weren't too pleased either. You'd think that the gift of a city would do something to alleviate the tension between two nations, but I guess not...

[miccofl]

Originally posted by Fitz
mic, if you eliminate #2, that puts you even further in advance of the (new) second ranked player. I'm not saying that is the way the mood works, but do you think it's possible ... ?

It’s possible, but this effect happens even when I am after a weak civ. It seems every time I have a military alliance or another civ gets sucked into the conflict, when I eliminate the civ they (my allies) become upset and even ridiculous bribes (like four techs and 1000 gold) have no effect – unless I declare another war and drag them into it whereupon they become polite again. So it seems that even though vondrack was just kidding, he was probably correct.

[steven8r]

I had a similar thing happen to me. Japan got po'ed at my failed attempts to install a spy and declared war on me. I was pretty weak at the time so I bribed America, Iroquois, Russia, Egypt, and some others to help me.

I actually did very well against the Japanese. They had a bigger army, but mostly samuri and/or infantry. I was just beginning to crank out Panzers like mad. I took most of the Japanese cities and never lost any of my own cities. As soon as Japan was wiped-out, all of my allies became Annoyed w/ me. All of them canceled our MPP (which had sprung up during the war). I asked what it would take to renew the MPP and they said that 'After what I had done to the Americans, they couldn't trust me.' I hadn't done anything to the Americans except continue to sell them techs.

In fact, the Americans were the only ones who dropped to Cautious with me. Everyone else was Annoyed or Furious. A few turns later and a few more tech trades w/ America and they were back to Polite. Everyone else still thinks that I betrayed them or something.

However, now that I have most of the Japanese cities, my empire is doing quite well and I'm not afraid of any 1 of the other civs. I just don't want 'em ganging up on me.

[dexters]

I think any country would be po'ed at its allies given such circumstances. It's probably more a reflection of your barbarity in wiping out an entire civ, coupled with other factors--if you became the overwhelming superpower #1 number uno, head honcho, top dawg, the AI will hate you for it. Even your allies.

Same thing happened to me when I wiped out the Germans in a continent I was sharing with them and the Zulus. The Zulus, who were polite up till then, dropped to furious and declared war, before I was ready to attack them. That move probably save them from total annihialation. Although we engaged in 4 more wars, I never did manage to crush them entirely, as I had other Civs to contend with.

It's a rather nice move by the AI, almost as if it predicted I was going to take them out, which I was going to... after I prepared an army. Something I never got to do. The first war infact ended in a stalemate, but essentially, the Zulus, through that single move of declaring war on me, won by making so that i could not take their key cities. I got a few on the fringe, which were going to flip to me culturally anyways.


Of course, one key difference is that I wasn't allied with the Zulus, just close friends, with me giving them 5 gold per turn to pacify them as I wiped out the Germans. Without alliances, ROP or anything like that, their mood was unaltered.

[steven8r]

Actually, I didn't wipe them out. I got them down to 1 city then got a Peace Treaty.

The Egyptians wiped them out the next turn and took the city.

I did notice that the Americans had a large stack of units headed for that city. They were going through my lands to get there, which didn't take too long because I had a ROP agreement w/ everyone helping me in the war.

If anything, I figured that everyone would be upset at the Egyptians, but even Cleopatra was Furious w/ me--and I left the last city for her. (Ungrateful B----!)

Was it because I signed a Peace Treaty w/ their enemy that they got miffed? I did have several MPP's with them, but by this time we were attacking on Japan's soil. That shouldn't have PO'ed anyone, should it?

[dexters]

The AI are self serving SOBs. As they should. They can be manipulated yes, but they come from a perspective of serving themselves first, which is quite different from the AI in Civ 2, which had absolutely no strategy whatsover. To me, Civ 2's diplo stuff seemed something more like a nice interface for exchanging money built ontop of a completed game, and served little purpose.

On the record, for all its flaws and quirks, Civ III's diplomacy is fantastic. Read my post above about the Zulus. They can really surprise you. Repeatedly.

[Theseus]

All Ai civs hate me.

I enjoy it.

It's especially warming when Cathy or Liz detest the very thought of me, but still pay 1000s of gps for a tech.

I've played a couple of games where I managed their moods... it didn't seem to make much of a difference. I know, I know, theoretically it impacts your ability to trade, but by the time that makes a difference, it doesn't quite matter.

I do believe in the Arrian Deception, however.

[dexters]

Arrian Deception?

[Arrian]

I'm pretty sure he means my attempt at wiping out my neighbors prior to making contact with overseas civs. If I pull it off, my reputation is spotless, because no one is left to tell the newcomers about all the terrible things I did. I'm nice to them. I trade with them. I plant cities on their continent and culture bomb their luxuries... and wait gleefully for all hell to break loose.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

Yup.

[Fitz]

Steven, yes, it was because you signed a peace treaty with the Japanese.

Reread the thread.

To summarize:
If you sign an allaince and later sign peace with the target of that alliance without first canceling it, you will have betrayed your partener. You cannot cancel an alliance within 20 years of signing it.
If you sign an MPP, and either you or another civ goes to war because that MPP is triggered, you cannot sign peace with the triggering civ without first canceling the MPP, or you will have betrayed your partner. You cannot cancel an MPP within 20 years of having signed it.

In other words, if you sign an MPP and want to keep it, destroy the civ that triggered it, or better yet allow your ally to take the last civ so that they get the "wipe out" on their record. Or let your MPP partner sign for peace first, although that may cancel the MPP (not sure).

If you sign an alliance or MPP and don't care about keeping them, but do want your rep to be intact, be prepared for 20 years of war. When the 20 years pass, call up your partner, cancel the alliance/MPP, then call up the offending civ and get a peace treaty.

MPPs are somewhat superior in this regard, because they hold for 20 years after the signing, not 20 years after the war breaks out. I personally grab MPPs as soon as I am sure I will be shortly attacked by another civ. This usually gives me 5-10 less years that I am committed to war. Especially since that MPP can be a deterant that delays the enemy civ for a few years (or at least it appears that way, not sure thats really coded in).