How are defensive units picked

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by SpencerH
i.e. my two elite cav attack a conscript riflemen in open ground and lose. Sure its statistically possible, but it ruins the game for me.

Unlike the tank v. spearman debate, the situation you described is a very possible outcome. Indeed, by the age of rifle, cavalry were relegated to supporting roles only.

In any case, you can mod the combat values.

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

Originally posted by SpencerH
i.e. my two elite cav attack a conscript riflemen in open ground and lose. Sure its statistically possible, but it ruins the game for me.

My money is on the rifleman too. Now had you lost 2 cav to a spearman, that would be bad. Was the rifleman fortified? what terrain? behind a river?

[Stuie]

Originally posted by dunk999


Ugh, if I have to do this with all my units, I'm going to come punch you people in the nose.

Uh oh. And you live close enough to me to do that.

Seriously though, I just wanted the option to select primary defenders (or maybe a class of unit(s) that can be flagged in-game as primary defenders for your civ). If you make no choice, let the current rules prevail.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Zachriel
Unlike the tank v. spearman debate, the situation you described is a very possible outcome.

The only way that outcome occurs is if the conscript riflemen wins 10 rounds of combat in a row (which it did)

Indeed, by the age of rifle, cavalry were relegated to supporting roles only.

Gotta disagree there. The civ3 rifleman represents something from the 17 to late 1800's. Prior to the use of modern cartridge ammunition that allows a more rapid rate of fire, calvary remained highly effective as shock troops especially against unfortified units on open ground.

In any case, you can mod the combat values.

I know I can mod the values, but it tends to skew the results so that the outcome becomes guaranteed. IMO there is something faulty with the combat calculation system (I just dont know what) and I'm tired of fiddling with it.

[Sava]

It would be a nice option, but the unit with the highest hit points gets selected... just another little bell and whistle that Firaxis didn't bother to think about.

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

Originally posted by SpencerH
The only way that outcome occurs is if the conscript riflemen wins 10 rounds of combat in a row (which it did)

Thats one thing that irks me about the randon number generator is that it seems to frequently cluster numbers. Its seems to me that the defender or attacker will win rounds in succession. I lost an elite swordsman (6a/8hp) to an unfortified on grass vet archer (2d/6hp) after the archer was down to its last HP and the swordsman had all its left. So the swordsman won 5 rounds in a row, then lost 8 in a row. If the random generator was truly random, there's very little chance the swordsman could lose that many in a row considering the odds. I dont mind losing the unit but its seems fishy to me how often combat follows that trend with one unit winning many in a row, then losing many in a row. BTW, I've also been the benefactor in some cases so i doubt its an AI advantage.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by ALPHA WOLF 64

Thats one thing that irks me about the randon number generator is that it seems to frequently cluster numbers. Its seems to me that the defender or attacker will win rounds in succession. I lost an elite swordsman (6a/8hp) to an unfortified on grass vet archer (2d/6hp) after the archer was down to its last HP and the swordsman had all its left. So the swordsman won 5 rounds in a row, then lost 8 in a row. If the random generator was truly random, there's very little chance the swordsman could lose that many in a row considering the odds. I dont mind losing the unit but its seems fishy to me how often combat follows that trend with one unit winning many in a row, then losing many in a row. BTW, I've also been the benefactor in some cases so i doubt its an AI advantage.

Thats really what I'm talking about and I agree it works both ways. My point isnt the spearman-tank debate per se, but about the algorithim used to select the "random" numbers

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by SpencerH
The only way that outcome occurs is if the conscript riflemen wins 10 rounds of combat in a row (which it did)

A quick check of the civulator reveals that the chance of losing with two elite cavalry v. one conscript rifleman is 1/7, fortified 1/5, fortified behind a river, 1/4. A good chance of success, but far from certain.

http://www.columbia.edu/~sdc2002/civulator.html

Gotta disagree there. The civ3 rifleman represents something from the 17 to late 1800's. Prior to the use of modern cartridge ammunition that allows a more rapid rate of fire, calvary remained highly effective as shock troops especially against unfortified units on open ground.

Undoubtedly, there are many interpretations of what constitutes a "rifleman" in the context of the game. But for an example, the American Civil War was fought primarily with smooth-bore muskets. During the war, cavalry was used primarily for recon and disruption. They were rarely effective in direct fighting against infantry.

[Theseus]

1. Thanks Zachriel, you beat me to the punch. Gotta love those guys at Columbia. I dunno about the RNG being flawed... I get streaks at blackjack too.

2. Can we say Waterloo? Cav charges on infantry, of any kind, must've been awesome to watch, but they've been checked since Crecy.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Zachriel

A quick check of the civulator reveals that the chance of losing with two elite cavalry v. one conscript rifleman is 1/7, fortified 1/5, fortified behind a river, 1/4. A good chance of success, but far from certain.
http://www.columbia.edu/~sdc2002/civulator.html

Each cav has only a 14% chance of losing. The chance for two elites in a row would be .14x.14 = pretty darn small, but not if the "random numbers" are not random.

Undoubtedly, there are many interpretations of what constitutes a "rifleman" in the context of the game. But for an example, the American Civil War was fought primarily with smooth-bore muskets. During the war, cavalry was used primarily for recon and disruption. They were rarely effective in direct fighting against infantry.

I tend to think of the American civil war as the first "modern" war where cavalry were not used as shock troops. Calvary were used effectively as shock troops during the Napoleonic era and in India until at least the mutiny (1857).

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Theseus

2. Can we say Waterloo? Cav charges on infantry, of any kind, must've been awesome to watch, but they've been checked since Crecy.

At Waterloo the British Heavy Cav routed a French Division during its charge.

[Fitz]

1.7% chance of that rifleman winning in the open on grasslands, assuming it was fully healthy and not promoted after the first combat (or lost one hp then promoted to get it back).

3.8% if fortified or river.
6.6% if fortified and river.

If it was undamaged after the first and promoted the numbers become: 3.6%, 7.2%, and 11.7% respectively.

Not to much of a stretch if you are not paying attention to the details on the second sitch.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by SpencerH
Each cav has only a 14% chance of losing. The chance for two elites in a row would be .14x.14 = pretty darn small, but not if the "random numbers" are not random.

(Yes, that is per each elite cavalry. Thanks for the clarification.)

So each roll is much like the roll of a six-sided die. So losing two would be similar to rolling "craps," i.e. two ones. So to eliminate complaints about ridiculous results, should we eliminate "craps" from "craps" and filling inside straights from poker?

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by SpencerH
At Waterloo the British Heavy Cav routed a French Division during its charge.

In the Civ3 paradigm, cavalry generally defeats muskets, but are usually stopped by riflemen.

[dunk]

Originally posted by Stuie

Uh oh. And you live close enough to me to do that.

Seriously though, I just wanted the option to select primary defenders (or maybe a class of unit(s) that can be flagged in-game as primary defenders for your civ). If you make no choice, let the current rules prevail.

I understand your point, but I don't want to have any more micromanagement of units. This will make the late-game even more tedious.

I'll just ride right up that R5 and punch you.