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  • What To Do About Culture Flipping

    FIRST AND FOREMOST, DO AWAY WITH THE CURRENT SYSTEM.

    there are 2 ways i can see culture effectign border cities, but actually FLIPPING a city is just insane. i've never seen part of a country break off and join another because of their libraries.

    1. IMMIGRATION
    if you have a low-culture city on the border of a high-culture civ, population points will leave the uncultured city and join the nearest enemy city. this would reflect the desire of the people to join the other civ, but wouldnt have the same gut-wrenching effect as the current flip system.

    2. UNHAPPINESS
    this is probably the most realistic way to do this. if you have a low-culture, low-luxury city on the border of a high-culture or high-luxury civ, people in that city should get more and more unhappy. first of all, i play on monarch, and i NEVER have problems with happiness as the game stands, this would be much more interesting.

    It's probably more sane to do it this way too. If a city lacks a temple or a library, and the people across the river have one, they should get mad, or immigrate. this could even be done inter-civilizationally, to make up a word. people within your own empire could immigrate to other cities based on cultural differences.
    "I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
    - Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card

  • #2
    "..but wouldnt have the same gut-wrenching effect as the current flip system. "

    you mean where you see a stack of your 24 tanks disappear?

    i think flipping is much tamer now and have almost no trouble with it..the few times it happens..i revert.

    it may be a legit thing..i just don't like it (though i accept it when the enemy reverts in a rare instance)

    in one game i am playing now...a civ put 1 city near my capital. the rest of it is on an island...just across the way.

    So i put down a city to strangle theirs. many..many years later when my city had almost completed all its buildings, it flipped over during peace time. ARGH! The indian city should have flipped over to me i tell ya.

    In the same game.. i have cities almost completely surrounding 1 city (and definately surrounded the 2 cities)..yet it never flips over. argh again

    I perceive this to be unfair...but perceptions may be wrong. i do not know.

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    • #3
      let me just clarify that culture flipping of cities that are mostly of foriegn nationality could be conserved, but my 100% GERMAN CITIES shouldn't join the french empire.
      "I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
      - Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card

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      • #4
        There have been scores of threads discussing how stupid Culture Flipping cities and borders is. Razing cities of millions is even dumber.

        What should be done is Firaxis should END SOREN'S CRAZY IDEA about Culture Flipping.

        Since they won't, we can do what I do:

        1. If it flips to me I give the city back.

        2. If mine flips I go to autosave, reload, and make some changes.

        Unfortunately, I can't do anything about borders flipping over my resources or improvements.

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        • #5
          Immigration is definitely a better culture-flipping model. And not just between cities from two civs. I'm talking about two cities from the same civ.

          And when there's only one pop point, there's no culture flipping as long as a unit is fortified there (it can't be that hard managing a small population and preventing them from defecting). Otherwise, the town is simply abandoned, if its people want to defect and join another civ, but won't be abandoned at all if its only neighbours are friendly cities.

          Just what I think would be a better system than the ridiculous one that is in place at the moment.
          "Corporation, n, An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." -- Ambrose Bierce
          "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." -- Benjamin Franklin
          "Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction." -- Thomas Jefferson

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          • #6
            Re: What To Do About Culture Flipping

            Uber:

            This isn't a solution; it is simply a way to do away with culture in general. Realism or not, Firaxis intended Civ3 to be less of a war game, and part of that equasion was making culture important. Culture flipping is not a very realistic way to do this, but simply having pop points move (which is essentially meaningless) doesn't give culture anything important. IMO, a lot of the backlash against flipping may have more to do with people's expectations from previous Civs that war is the only permanent and important thing. Civ3 makes culture important, as it is in "real life," so any proposal to replace it should not neuter it as your proposal does.
            Lime roots and treachery!
            "Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten

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            • #7
              I think a simplified immigration model would be best: have individual citizens flip (but still stay in the cities where they're at, in contrast to the original suggestion), rather than an all-or-nothing city flip. So long as they've got this interesting system of tracking individual populations' ethnicity, they might as well really get some use out of it.

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              • #8
                Re: Re: What To Do About Culture Flipping

                Originally posted by cyclotron7
                Uber:

                This isn't a solution; it is simply a way to do away with culture in general. Realism or not, Firaxis intended Civ3 to be less of a war game, and part of that equasion was making culture important. Culture flipping is not a very realistic way to do this, but simply having pop points move (which is essentially meaningless) doesn't give culture anything important. IMO, a lot of the backlash against flipping may have more to do with people's expectations from previous Civs that war is the only permanent and important thing. Civ3 makes culture important, as it is in "real life," so any proposal to replace it should not neuter it as your proposal does.
                i consider the ability to attract foriegn population points to be a force to be reckoned with. and plus, if a player is such a peacemonger, they would probably rather have the extra pop points to build up their empire with.

                War by Culture is moronic and should be abolished.
                "I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
                - Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card

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                • #9
                  Re: Re: Re: What To Do About Culture Flipping

                  Originally posted by UberKruX
                  i consider the ability to attract foriegn population points to be a force to be reckoned with. and plus, if a player is such a peacemonger, they would probably rather have the extra pop points to build up their empire with.
                  Uber, you can't possibly tell me that gaining or losing a few pop points would even slightly alter your strategy... let alone convince you to build up a dominant culture. That's what I mean by a weak system... If you don't use flipping, you need another way to make culture important.
                  Lime roots and treachery!
                  "Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten

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                  • #10
                    Re: Re: Re: Re: What To Do About Culture Flipping

                    Originally posted by cyclotron7


                    Uber, you can't possibly tell me that gaining or losing a few pop points would even slightly alter your strategy... let alone convince you to build up a dominant culture. That's what I mean by a weak system... If you don't use flipping, you need another way to make culture important.
                    i thought that was what culture borders are for... and i'll fight that one to the floor too

                    "BEHOLD, MY LIBRARIES ENTITLE ME TO THAT OIL. NO, YOUR PANZERS MEAN NOTHING TO MY SUPERIOR CATHEDRALS. BWAHAHA!"
                    "I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
                    - Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card

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                    • #11
                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What To Do About Culture Flipping

                      Originally posted by UberKruX "BEHOLD, MY LIBRARIES ENTITLE ME TO THAT OIL. NO, YOUR PANZERS MEAN NOTHING TO MY SUPERIOR CATHEDRALS. BWAHAHA!"
                      Of course, you seem to be overlooking the open possibility of invading...

                      Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying culture flipping is a perfect system. I may not totally agree with the implementation, but I do like the importance placed behind the concept. At least Firaxis realized that culture needs to be important. So far, I've seen no better way of doing it that still gives culture importance. Yours, unfortunately, does not.
                      Lime roots and treachery!
                      "Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten

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                      • #12
                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What To Do About Culture Flipping

                        Originally posted by UberKruX i thought that was what culture borders are for... and i'll fight that one to the floor too
                        You only need a temple for that. Anyhthing else is generally overkill, unless you really need to fill in space fast. Borders don't require or have anything to do with a high culture in you Civ, just a bit of culture in the city.
                        Lime roots and treachery!
                        "Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten

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                        • #13
                          Well, yes, but the immigration concept does pose the question as to what would happen with single-population cities; would the entire city be disbanded if its only citizen emigrated, or would they simply be forced to stay put? I'm not too fond of the result either way. My main complaint against culture flipping is that it's too sudden; the all-or-nothing aspect of whole cities suddenly changing cultures is what makes the concept (which would otherwise fit reasonably well given the high level of abstraction inherent in the game) so ridiculous. If it were gradual and could be directly combated more effectively I'd be fine with it.
                          Last edited by Random Passerby; May 27, 2002, 01:57.

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                          • #14
                            KruX's idea might work if instead of pop joining a city, they showed up as workers of the aquirers nationality. They could then be added to a city of choice, used to work the land, or disbanded for gold or shields.

                            Would be cool if the last pop point could leave too. City poofta. Will the last emigre to leave please turn out the lights.
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                            • #15
                              The original idea of culture-flipping is supposed to be for the peaceful builders. In general civ3 ought to be more for that group.

                              I used to be one of those peaceful builders, but since civ3 I realized that only war will get you where you want: Victory.

                              There are a few reasons for this change:

                              1. If your army is not big enough, especially in the beginning, the AI will either demand tribute or declare war, or declare war rightaway. So if you want to survive, you need to build a large army....

                              2. The concept of cultureflipping works out for me that AI cities never flip to me, not even when surrounded by my cities with high culture. But my cities flip to them. Especially conquered cities, which I now raze. It is a painful decision, but it is the only way to win, so it has to be done.

                              3. The AI expands way faster than I do. So to be able to gather a large territory the only solution is to take it from them. There are no pieces of land left that is not occupied...

                              So I would say that civ3 is more for the Warmongerers than for the Builders.
                              Member of Official Apolyton Realistic Civers Club.
                              If you can't solve it, it's not a problem--it's reality
                              "All is well your excellency, and that pleases me mightily"

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