Foreign Relations 101

[notyoueither]

"Excuse me sir, but we have a lack of intelligence. The rest of the world seems to have caught up to us and now have Tanks. Don't you think it would be wise to plant some spies to see where the Persians, Babylonians, Aztecs, and Americans stand in the way of forces compared to us?"

Yes. Well, I'm a bit focused on ridding the world of the Greek scourge. Didn't notice. Oh well, do as you will.

"Very good sir."

...

"Sir?"

Yes, what is it? Can't you see that I am busy moving our armoured legions into position to liberate Athens?

"Yes sir, but it seems..."

Well, what is it?

"Well Caesar, it seems that our spies found easy access to the Aztec and Persian capitals."

Very good then. Leave me alone to go about my business.

"But sir..."

What?!

"It seems that out agents in Washington and Babylon were caught. It also seems as if Lincoln and Hammurabi were less than pleased. It also seems that we are now at war with America and Babylon. That's all."

!!!

"But sir..."

Nevermind! I'll handle it.

...

It is easy to find yourself at war. You do not have to do anything, it will come looking for you from time to time. The difference between victory and defeat will often be determined not by what your beautifully uniformed armies may do, but by how your diplomats perform once hostilities commence.

The staged conversation occurs as I, the glory of Rome, am pummeling Alexander into oblivion. Rome is on a continent with Greece and the remnants of Egypt. The Iroquois from our continent were previously snuffed. The other major continent is peopled by the Aztecs, Americans, Babs, and Persians. They are all roughly equal. War never seems to have broken out over there.

I notice that everyone now has Tanks. I also notice that I have neglected to place spies in any capitals. So I decide, Caesar want spys, Caesar get spys. Good plan. The downside of the good plan is that I find myself at war with two more powers in addition to the Greeks.

Rome is a Republic, as it should be. So far we have not experienced any war weariness despite a lengthy period of active warfare in which we have captured many Greek cities. We have not experienced WW due to the fact that we move slowly and deliberately. We avoid situations where we will suffer many casualties. We believe that these factors will keep the citizens of the Republic content, and so far they have. 0 WW after many, many, many turns of war.

Now Rome finds itself in a pickle. The Americans and the Babs will surely send forces to invade Roman territory and bombard our land. Furthermore, they will surely enlist the Aztecs and the Persians. In that case we will be at war with the entire world. Even though Caesar is brilliant on the field and could overcome these odds, we are certain that the citizens of the Republic would grow weary of war.

So how does Rome get out of the pickle? Well... It cost 1 Ivory to get Montezuma to attack the Americans. It cost 1 Spice to get Xerxes to attack the Babs. During the following AI sequence of turns, war breaks out between the Aztecs and the Babs as well as between the Persians and Americans. AI MPPs can work to your advantage

The whole peaceful continent is at war with itself. Aint it great? Now it is unlikely that we are going to see many, if any enemy units from 'over there' near our shores. Thus, although our inept spies dumped us in the sauce, our diplomats saved the situation in short order.

The lesson? You be the judge.

[Jethro83]

Great story. I agree with the lesson here.

I've done the same sorts of things to help me in war. It helps in more situations than just war weariness.

[Fidel]

yes, i've learned that lesson too. pay as much as necessary to get an ally if you are puny and miserable. also, it's better to pay a lot to a proxy than to keep 12 jet fighters all over the invasion coast.

[notyoueither]

Whether puny or grand, it is better to be 1 of 5, rather than 1 against 5.

Or in this case, 1 of 3 rather than 1 against 5.

[Harovan]

Yeah. It's fun to stick the torch in the haystack and 20 turns later go away whistling. A republic can stand this period without the WW getting annoying, and you will certainly get rid of a lot of competitors. Especially if the haystack is on another continent. Later do all to prolongue the conflict. Determine the loser. Sell him the ressources he needs. If one gets too strong, send expeditional forces to cut him down, but only after making sure you can make enough allies. Again 20 turns of war. Rinse, repeat.

[Nym]

I experienced it too. I tried to place spies everywhere and so got a war against Persia, which was certainly the most powerful civ. Selling some techs (it is useful to have tech lead) or luxuries, I succeed in putting all other civs in the war against Persia.
The only wrong thing I did was to conclude peace with Persia about 5 turns later. Other civs did not really pardon me.

[The Viceroy]

Excellent story, and so so true ..

to add to those perls of wisdom .. the bit about war comming looking for you ..

If your faced with multiple intrusions, and your sending the AI out of your territory each turn .. then one of them plucks up the courage to declare war .. BEWARE ... the others will also .. so, let there silly units through, and smash your enemy .. and when they crawl for forgiveness .. crush the next intruder . .and so on ..

Unless of course, your happy to go for World War ..

[campmajor!]

Hm, in my latest game I was on a continent with the Americans and the Russians. I was a bit puny, so the Yanks wanted tribute from me. At first I gave in, but at the same time I created a large army. I was the Babs, so I made a lot of bowmen. The Russians also wanted tribute, but were further away than the Americans, so I did not give in to them. They declared war but were so far away that I did not notice it a lot.

Once I thought I was strong enough, I refused tribute, so I got a war with the Americans. It was tough at first because they had a lot of units as well (and had iron and I did not), but I managed to keep them off and later conquer a lot of cities of them. With the Russians I made peace, because I came nearer to them. Also I let them declare war to the Americans, so Abe was down to his knees!

To prevend cities to flip back to Abe, I finally took the last city as well. And there I was after a lot of years of war. Under a Monarchy gov, where others were democracies....

Once again (in most of my games it happens more or less) I was behind in tech. Which reminds me: Why did Firaxis remove the rule that let you aquire tech by conquering cities?

So the Greeks, Egyptians and English on the other continent were very far ahead in tech. Also the Russians were somewhat ahead. So I formed a democratic gov and started closing in on tech. Also I traded a lot with the other civs. I had some resources and some money, but not enough to aquire all tech. Most former American cities suffered a lot of corruption (this is 1.16f, mind you), so the treasury was not so good...

But on the other hand, the Russians were much stronger than I am and started to ask for tribute again. Same story all over again as with the Americans. I gave in, but increased my forces. But I was far behind because I was still weak compared to them according to the mil advisor.

Once he said we were average compared to them I stopped giving in to them and it became war again. But I forgot one thing: by this time they gained cavalry tech and thus had cossacks...

Personally I like the cossack unit a lot, but this time I was on the other side...

So a long war started. At first I could not answer their brute force, so I lost property. Only with setting all production to building mil units, I could contain them. But I could not get any further as well. Then I dicovered Nationalism and drafted the hell out of me! That worked good enough to be able to make a line of units which they could not penetrate through. But I still could not attack them as well. I named this stage WW1 because it was a trench-type of war. All this time the Russians were not willing to even speak to me.

At this time the war weariness became too high, it sucked up all my money and science since I was forced to set the lux to about 60/70%. Finally the Russians allowed a conversation. So I did a great effort to stop the war and they gave in.

By this time it became clear that the Greeks were very developed. And very far away.... On that continent it was all settled, the Egyps, the English and the Greeks were at good terms with each other and the Aztecs were small, but also at peace with them.

In this short period I continued to build up my army, but also tried to gain tech by all means possible. I also tried to gain a lot of resources, but they made me pay a lot....

Then I lost one of my captured cities back to the Russians, so I declared war upon them again. This time I had a lot of cav and inf, so I was able to slowly gain terrain. This time I razed most cities, so the Russians could not get them back by culture. During this war (I called this one WW2) I also got the English and the Egyps to make an MPP with me, so they declared war upon the Russians as well. Though it was mainly off-shore bombing it still helped me to totally wipe out the Russians eventually.

So here I was, with a large continent mainly in my hands and the other parts populated by my friends (although I kept their prop surrounded by inf to keep them from sending settlers to razed territory).

Suddenly the Greek start building the Apollo Program and soon after that they build it. Followed by building parts...

So I had to do something and sent out a spy to the Greek. It got captured and they started a war with me. But I still had an MPP with the English and Cleo, so they declared war on the Greeks! The problem was that they were not as powerful as the Greeks are, so they lost infrastructure. Also the Greeks had an MPP with the Aztecs, so they joined in. You could consider this one as WW3. I still had a lot of units from the war against the Russians, so I made a lot of transports and battleships and sent out a large fleet to the Greeks, but they are a bit far away, so it takes 6 turns to get there....

Now they take the land of the Aztecs, but the Greeks are very strong...

This is where I am at the monent. My problem is if I will be in time to keep them from completing the Space ship. I guess it will take a while before I have their territority captured....

It was not an option for me to set the AI civs up against each other because:
a. My resources are limited;
b. The Greeks are much more powerful than the other ones;
c. The Greeks do not like me...

[Jon Shafer]

Just find the city they're building stuff in, and blow it up.

As far as the gaining techs by capturing cities, Firaxis probably thought the problem was similar to the reforestation/chop down cheat for shields, and decided it was too much of a benefit to warmongers (after all, we're trying to tone down on war in this game right? ). That's my theory at least.

[bigvic]

2 things to say here.

1. Is it just me or do AI's get way bent out of shape over foiled plant spy missions. Kind of makes the whole thing pointless. I mean, if you are going for a UN victory, well, you piss everyone off. I usually spy only on those already pissy.

2. Wow. Just can't win w/ the Frenchies. Seem like they should be pretty solid, comm./ind. and all. In my mod, muskateers are awesome, 5/4/1 (I've upped all UU's), but I just can't get to that stage in a position to use them for anything more than staying alive. Getting on my nerves. For some reason they seem to get early exploratory warriors killed in droves, by tormenting barbarians, who seem to hit Frenchie w/ especial gusto. Then all sorts of stupid crap goes down.
On top of that, everytime it seems I may have overcome the "frog curse" I do something stupid and ruin it for the pinko legions myself. Last game, for instance, I start on a typically crappy island. I'm playing "iron man", monarch, raging barbarians, 16 civs on large world, random everything else, trying to keep the game moving. So at first I play a nearly flawless game, placeing cities perfectly, following solid research path, snagging a couple of early wonders, establishing bases on the main continent. Hell, I even manage to build a solid Napoleanic force of muskateer, cavalry, riflemen, cannon. Then, late at night, I do something abysmally stupid. I follow my roommate's advice and make a mutual protection pact. True to form, the frog curse kicks in next turn and the AI dogpiles the *******s I allied w/ (the English). Watch out w/ those damned things. From a position of power, they can win the game, but... I had lurked mid position the whole game til then, but w/in a few turns the AI had flattened all my coastal improvements and reduced my well balanced force to a desperate holding force, isolated on the campaigning continent due to the cheatass freakin sinking of my entire freakin fleet, and hordes of cheatass freakin ai units were swarming in. Yep. Frogs suck. If they don't lose my game, I will

[Stuie]

My current game has put all my foreign relations skills to the test. I started as a random civ, and ended up with the pinkies... er, I mean the French. First time playing them. I chose large continents with maximum land mass possible.

So I try to quickly establish some cities and such, thinking I'll go for culture for once (even though the French aren't really suited to this task). After some time, I have met all my neighbors on the continent, which turns out to be a supercontinent with eleven civs, and I'm smack dab in the middle. My neighbors, clockwise from the north, are the Persians, Zulus, Iroquois, Aztecs, Greeks, Americans, English, Romans, Egypt, and the Indians. Early on the Americans demand some bauble or other, I refuse, and war is declared. I immediately contact the Aztecs, Greeks, Romans and Egyptians and soon we are all fighting the Americans. This cost my various trade goods - some techs (luckily I was slightly ahead), some cash, and some resources/luxury items. I always tried to provide strategic resources or techs that would boost the civs ability to fight the Americans without endangering me in the future. Anyway, I didn't even bother sending any troops into the fray, since the other four were keeping Abe busy. Instead I continued to concentrate on infrastructure and techs.

Then the Persians came calling with their demands. Again, I refuse, they declare war. This time I empower the Indians, Zulu (have to be careful there) and Iroquois to fight my war. This one goes slightly worse, as the Persians actually take one of my northern cities, so I send enough troops to retake the city, and then return to development while my proxies pound on the Persians.

Once both wars are concluded (after about 20 turns), I have gone further ahead in techs and culture, and everyone loves me except the rump-Persian state and the English (whom I never enlisted). Rome is fighting the English so I feed Caesar some resources/techs to keep Bitty under control. Oh, and the Americans are gone. Then I start acquiring my former allies' cities through culture. Apparently this disturbs the Egyptians (well, that I the city I built on the ruins of Buffalo to grab some ivory...) and a pile of their swordsmen show up on my doorstep. I try to calm Cleo down with a trade, but next turn she tosses down the gauntlet and on come her swordsmen. I lose my ivory city immediately. Hmph. So I contact the Indians, Romans, Greeks and Aztecs, and for the usual compensation they fight my war for me while I quickly reestablish my ivory town. During this war, I send galley after galley to the bottom of the ocean in an attempt to find the other continent. Success rewards me with exclusive contact with the Germans, Babylonians, Chinese, Russians and Japan.

Toward the end of the war, the previously gracious Zulu brought their demands (contact with the Germans - yeah, that would be a great combination) to my table, so I enlisted everyone except the English and Egyptians to fight them, and through in Right of Passage to boot. I went to these extreme measures for two reasons: the Zulu were mildly strong thanks to my bribes over the years, and I wanted Zimbabwe because they had built Sun Tzu and the Pyramids there. So I focused on these tight objectives - straight line to Zimbabwe, while the other AIs tied up the Zulus in other regions. Worked like a charm and I took their capital this morning before coming to work.

Anyway, if you can get a slight edge on the tech race, don't be afraid to trade some away to drag the AI Civs into wars. The AI will focus on the war, and you are free to build and research.

[Jawa Jocky]

I have used notyoueither's strategy too. It does have one downside.

Everytime I meddle in the affairs on another continent that has a stalemate, I end up making a rival superpower. That is to say somebody always seems to win the war and gain control of the entire continent.

This could make an overseas invasion more difficult. Personally I'm too lazy to attack big enemies overseas, but people going for domination should keep this in mind.

[bigvic]

Ok, went home to get something off my computer and couldn't resist...Started a new game w/ frenchies, 16 civs on standard world, monarch, large continents landmasses, normal everything else, raging hordes. Did speed play. Don't want to curse myself, but looks like I'm kicking some @$$!!! Got plopped on the coast, managed to secure two each of iron and horses, varied terrain consisting of everything but jungle and tundra (AWW man ), and two types of luxuries in decent quantity...in other words too good to be true! I suspect I will probably find myself devoid of saltpeter or coal, or something absurd like that (saltpeter the worse, though, of course - w/ saltpeter I WILL have coal ). Diplomatically going well, got rop's w/ all neighbors - aztecs, americans, russians, english, japs, babs, zulu, in roughly that order of distance. Aztecs have been pushy, had to swallow pride & cave in to a demand early, but have managed to build a nice military, trading w/em, now seems to be smooth sailing. I even built the colossus, which is solid in my mod, never going away and giving offshore platform sea minerals. Must play machiavellian diplomacy! No stupid mmp's w/ chumps! No finger farts this time!!!!!

BTW, In my American game, I'm right proud of having eliminated my co-continentals (aztecs, iroqois, indians - no small feat for the early game UU challenged gringos). Also managed to visciously slaughter every intrisive diahretic settler the frenchies, chinese, babs and someone else who escapes me now squirted onto MY continent before I sewed it up. Ended up w/ 3 armies and all requisite small military wonders. Anyway, was proud of the way I have become the puppetmaster ("Pull ze strings! Pull ze strings!) by teching up and subsidizing the weaklings.

[Panag]

Re: Foreign Relations 101

Originally posted by notyoueither
"Excuse me sir, but we have a lack of intelligence. The rest of the world seems to have caught up to us and now have Tanks. Don't you think it would be wise to plant some spies to see where the Persians, Babylonians, Aztecs, and Americans stand in the way of forces compared to us?"

Yes. Well, I'm a bit focused on ridding the world of the Greek scourge. Didn't notice. Oh well, do as you will.

"Very good sir."

...

"Sir?"

Yes, what is it? Can't you see that I am busy moving our armoured legions into position to liberate Athens?

"Yes sir, but it seems..."

Well, what is it?

"Well Caesar, it seems that our spies found easy access to the Aztec and Persian capitals."

Very good then. Leave me alone to go about my business.

"But sir..."

What?!

"It seems that out agents in Washington and Babylon were caught. It also seems as if Lincoln and Hammurabi were less than pleased. It also seems that we are now at war with America and Babylon. That's all."

!!!

"But sir..."

Nevermind! I'll handle it.

...

It is easy to find yourself at war. You do not have to do anything, it will come looking for you from time to time. The difference between victory and defeat will often be determined not by what your beautifully uniformed armies may do, but by how your diplomats perform once hostilities commence.

The staged conversation occurs as I, the glory of Rome, am pummeling Alexander into oblivion. Rome is on a continent with Greece and the remnants of Egypt. The Iroquois from our continent were previously snuffed. The other major continent is peopled by the Aztecs, Americans, Babs, and Persians. They are all roughly equal. War never seems to have broken out over there.

I notice that everyone now has Tanks. I also notice that I have neglected to place spies in any capitals. So I decide, Caesar want spys, Caesar get spys. Good plan. The downside of the good plan is that I find myself at war with two more powers in addition to the Greeks.

Rome is a Republic, as it should be. So far we have not experienced any war weariness despite a lengthy period of active warfare in which we have captured many Greek cities. We have not experienced WW due to the fact that we move slowly and deliberately. We avoid situations where we will suffer many casualties. We believe that these factors will keep the citizens of the Republic content, and so far they have. 0 WW after many, many, many turns of war.

Now Rome finds itself in a pickle. The Americans and the Babs will surely send forces to invade Roman territory and bombard our land. Furthermore, they will surely enlist the Aztecs and the Persians. In that case we will be at war with the entire world. Even though Caesar is brilliant on the field and could overcome these odds, we are certain that the citizens of the Republic would grow weary of war.

So how does Rome get out of the pickle? Well... It cost 1 Ivory to get Montezuma to attack the Americans. It cost 1 Spice to get Xerxes to attack the Babs. During the following AI sequence of turns, war breaks out between the Aztecs and the Babs as well as between the Persians and Americans. AI MPPs can work to your advantage

The whole peaceful continent is at war with itself. Aint it great? Now it is unlikely that we are going to see many, if any enemy units from 'over there' near our shores. Thus, although our inept spies dumped us in the sauce, our diplomats saved the situation in short order.

The lesson? You be the judge.

hi ,

Notyoueither what is going on between you and Ceasar , ......


the lesson , well , RES NON VERBA , ........

foreign relations are build on the strenght and power of one's army , .......
war as a whole is a continuation of politics , not to mention the relationship's with other nations , ......

have a nice day

[notyoueither]

What are you on about Panag? I am Caesar!

Do I have a thing with myself? Well, you can never love another...