Oil Supplies

[wrylachlan]

I was just reading another thread about naval supply lines and was thinking about how the supply chain is not really represented in the game.

Specifically I was thinking about how tanks can run forever even if they are not connected to oil. Once you build the tank (or anything else which requires oil) you can totally loose your oil supply and they still work.

My proposal is that oil-burning vehicles have a grace period of say 2 turns where they can be disconnected from an oil source without penalty. After that, for each turn they remain unconnected their stats decrease by 20% (obviously the exact percentage need not be hardcoded, you could set it in the editor). To be connected you must have a solid road or RR from the unit to the resource.

This would do a couple of neat things:

1.) Air superiority would be much more important since bombers can cut you off from your resources.
2.) Marines would become much more important since to do a tank invasion overseas you would first have to take a city with a harbor using your marines before your tanks arrive or else the tanks would be useless.

As a side note, ships would have a much much longer grace period before they need oil, maybe 10 or 20 turns.

[zulu9812]

I know that some people think that Civ3 was 'dumbed down', but I think this is going too far in the complication stakes.

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by zulu9812
I know that some people think that Civ3 was 'dumbed down', but I think this is going too far in the complication stakes.

Yes it is a little more complicated... but I don't think its a concept that people will have that hard a time understanding - no gas and your car doesn't run: I think that's pretty basic.

The trick is really to find a clear visual representation of what is happening so that players aren't surprised when their out-of-gas tanks become useless. Maybe as you run out of gas the unit becomes more and more red-tinted. Or each has a pop-up like when your citizens go into riot. It would definitely make sense no matter how you visually represent the units, to have your Military Advisor pop up and tell you that "Our troops on the front line are running out of gas, maybe we should send workers in to build some supply roads".

One of the most consistent gripes about the game on this forum is that the warfare isn't tactical enough, making most people use brute force. The bottom line for me is that this is a simple idea, easy to grasp, which has complex ramifications on gameplay and military tactics specifically.

[Bella Hella]

i can see your point, but i'm fine with that aspect of the game as is. it's already pretty difficult to get oil if you don't have the appropriate terrain types in your land. you often have to go to war just to get the resource in the first place. then, having the oil run out. i don't think all your tanks should be disbanded when you lose your oil source!

i think of it this way: i've been pumping oil out of that source for years, and have a surplus, which i store in barrels. or, even though the main source is gone, there's still oil somewhere in the ground, just enough to keep the tanks fueled. *shrug*

one way to make the runing-out-of-gas idea a little more feasible would be to have the tanks use a little fuel each time they move.
if you have an oil source, no problem; you don't see the meter go down. if you DON'T have oil, though, you'd better save them for an emergency, or use them as defenders in your town. (in town, i don't think they'd use any oil since they'd just be sitting there like roadblocks in the role of defender).

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by Bella Hella
i can see your point, but i'm fine with that aspect of the game as is. it's already pretty difficult to get oil if you don't have the appropriate terrain types in your land. you often have to go to war just to get the resource in the first place. then, having the oil run out. i don't think all your tanks should be disbanded when you lose your oil source!

No, not disbanded, just loose all movement points. And I agree with you, for this idea to work, oil would have to be a little more plentiful

i think of it this way: i've been pumping oil out of that source for years, and have a surplus, which i store in barrels. or, even though the main source is gone, there's still oil somewhere in the ground, just enough to keep the tanks fueled. *shrug*

one way to make the runing-out-of-gas idea a little more feasible would be to have the tanks use a little fuel each time they move.
if you have an oil source, no problem; you don't see the meter go down. if you DON'T have oil, though, you'd better save them for an emergency, or use them as defenders in your town. (in town, i don't think they'd use any oil since they'd just be sitting there like roadblocks in the role of defender).

That's a good point. Maybe this effect only happens in enemy territory. So if you are defending in your city - no problem. But if you advance on the enemy and it takes a few turns to take his city, and there are no supply roads running back to your territory - that's where you run into trouble.

[zulu9812]

I always imagined aunit in Civ3 as having the infrastructure along with it: officers, comm-link, food, fuel, ammo, etc..

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by zulu9812
I always imagined aunit in Civ3 as having the infrastructure along with it: officers, comm-link, food, fuel, ammo, etc..

I agree, but there is currently no way to make supply-lines a strategic importance. I'm not saying my way is the best way. I'd love to hear some other ideas. I would just like some way of giving tactical significance to the supply lines.

[zulu9812]

Perhaps if cities could be besieged? i.e. if all 8 squares are occupied by enemy units then that city loses all resources (excluding the resource in the square the city was built on, if any)...

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by zulu9812
Perhaps if cities could be besieged? i.e. if all 8 squares are occupied by enemy units then that city loses all resources (excluding the resource in the square the city was built on, if any)...

You can already "besiege" a city by pillaging all the roads in and blockading the harbor. (Does Air Superiority over an enemy city with an airport negate the Airport connection to the trade netwrok?).

My point was a supply line for the units. Yes the unit includes its officers and comm equipment and a reasonable supply of gas, but if America air-dropped a tank into the middle of Russia, and somehow it wasn't blown up on the spot, eventually it would run out of gas. There is no mechanism for this in the game.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

The way I see it working best is as follows:
If the resource (such as coal or Oil) is lost to the internal trade network, through a loss of infrastructure or resource disappearance, then resource dependant units (like tanks and mech inf) should lose 1hp for every turn that they are in enemy territory, the only exception being if they are in a fortress or a captured city! Even in these structures, they cannot heal unless they regain access to the resource in question! On home soil, any damage recieved can only be healed at the rate of 1hp/turn unless they regain access to the resource! This will make your internal trade network all the more VITAL but, of course, appearance and disappearance ratios would need to be changed considerably!!
Anyway, just my $0.02c worth.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

[Zachriel]

Re: Oil Supplies

Originally posted by wrylachlan
I was just reading another thread about naval supply lines and was thinking about how the supply chain is not really represented in the game.

The reason is because supply line computations simply take too much computational power for a home computer game. Currently, each unit has to complete a shortest path algorithm to its destination, a primary cause of lag; but then each unit would have to find a path to a supplied city. When there is a large war, even among the AI's, the computations can already take several minutes.

If you got carried away, you could require three resources for tanks; ammo, fuel and spare parts. Of course, now we would be talking about a different game -- and a different generation of computers. Civ4?

[wrylachlan]

Re: Re: Oil Supplies

Originally posted by Zachriel


The reason is because supply line computations simply take too much computational power for a home computer game. Currently, each unit has to complete a shortest path algorithm to its destination, a primary cause of lag; but then each unit would have to find a path to a supplied city. When there is a large war, even among the AI's, the computations can already take several minutes.

If you got carried away, you could require three resources for tanks; ammo, fuel and spare parts. Of course, now we would be talking about a different game -- and a different generation of computers. Civ4?

I'm not sure that I agree that it is the shortest path algorithm that is slowing things down. Did someone at Firaxis make this statement? Do you have some figures as to what percentage of the lag is from this algorithm vs. AI deciding where to go strategically?

I'm not saying that you're wrong, I don't know. But I remember doing pathfinding algorithms as part of a programming class years ago, and they really weren't outrageous, definitely nothing capable of bringing a high-end P3 to its knees. So you may be right, but I'd be willing to bet it is the strategic computations of the AI that take the processor time.

[Zachriel]

Re: Re: Re: Oil Supplies

Originally posted by wrylachlan
I'm not sure that I agree that it is the shortest path algorithm that is slowing things down. . . . So you may be right, but I'd be willing to bet it is the strategic computations of the AI that take the processor time.

One clue is that map size is directly related to lag.

Heuristics is a very subtle problem. Generally, pathfinding belongs to a class of problems that increases exponentially with size. Here are a couple of links on the subject:

"Why are pathfinding and its related analyses so difficult for a computer?"

http://www.tcnj.edu/~games/papers/Fisher.html

"One Algorithm to Rule Them All – A*"

http://www.cs.csustan.edu/~rsc/CS4960S02/Messer.pdf

[Jethro83]

This concept sure would work wonders for this game. I don't find it that complicating. It just gives you more to think about when you're playing. This concept could also go into other resources too...

Iron - when the supply is cut off, swordsmen, pikemen and knights have reduced attack and defense because their armour cracks, their weapons get dull, and they can't replace or repair them because of a lack of iron.

Saltpeter - Attack and defense of Musketmen is nil after about two battles.

Horses - Horse units movement rate reduced after about two turns (horses do age you know).

Coal - Railroad movement rate dropped down to standard road. Ironclad movement rate reduced (reducing consumption of coal), coal plant shield bonus negated.

Uranium - No effect on existing nukes. Nuclear plant shield bonus negated.

[Ijuin]

Originally posted by LordAzreal
This concept sure would work wonders for this game. I don't find it that complicating. It just gives you more to think about when you're playing. This concept could also go into other resources too...

Iron - when the supply is cut off, swordsmen, pikemen and knights have reduced attack and defense because their armour cracks, their weapons get dull, and they can't replace or repair them because of a lack of iron.

Saltpeter - Attack and defense of Musketmen is nil after about two battles.

Horses - Horse units movement rate reduced after about two turns (horses do age you know).

This is a little complicated. How about instead, units cannot heal when the necessary resource is unavailable, representing that the resource is needed to produce replacement parts?

Coal - Railroad movement rate dropped down to standard road...Coal plant shield bonus negated...Uranium - No effect on existing nukes. Nuclear plant shield bonus negated.

I like this part. Also, if a resource gets cut off, then production on any units or improvements needing it under construction gets suspended? Currently, you only need the resource to START producton, and can finish the unit or improvement even if the resource gets cut off halfway through.