hidden racist agenda

[Captain]

Originally posted by bigvic
This is looking kind of played out to me. Captain?! Captain, your ship has sprung a leak, I think.

Well, I hope I don't have to go down with the ship!

[zulu9812]

Dude - just chill. Everyone's getting far too worked up about this. Jews, Palatinians, terrorists, rascists...take it easy guys

[Andrew Cory]

Originally posted by Captain
true, I didn't intend a huge fuss. but i got very annoyed when told racism wasn't worth bothering about.

Actualy, you are being told that racisim isn't happening in the game. There is a big difference between "racism isn't worth bothering about", and "you are getting all worked up over somthing that isn't happening...

Originally posted by Captain
you're right. the thing is, by the late game,everyone in my cities doesn't look like a NEW mixed type of person, they look exactly the same despite assimilating millions of foreigners (and supposing they intermarried, then they should look different. it was the fact that they look all the same that led me to the conclusion that we wiped out the descendents of foreign nationals)

It is absurd to belive that _any_ civilization would retain identical racial characteristics through 8000 years of history, but in Civ they do. This is not indicitive of racism, or a refection of their actual belives, but just a refection of information that the player needs and an atempt to get it to the player.

[Captain]

Originally posted by Andrew Cory

Actualy, you are being told that racisim isn't happening in the game. There is a big difference between "racism isn't worth bothering about", and "you are getting all worked up over somthing that isn't happening...


It is absurd to belive that _any_ civilization would retain identical racial characteristics through 8000 years of history, but in Civ they do. This is not indicitive of racism, or a refection of their actual belives, but just a refection of information that the player needs and an atempt to get it to the player.

fair enough. why don't we end it there? if anything happens to be done to show a more pluralistic society in game, good for some of us, and not troubling for the rest of you. I shan't trouble you with my perspective regarding this thread any longer. I think this thread was of some benefit for some people, but it's lived out its usefulness. cheers and happy civving to all!

[bigvic]

Yeah captain, I respect your opinion and all, but i just don't think there is a racist element in CIv III. Yeah, I know, everyone has preconcieved notions and all that, but I don't think the firaxis team even thought about this, and if they did, any racist overtones were the result of sloth, not malevolence. Anyhoos, kudos to the sense of righteousness and desire to justice, but be careful - for two reasons.

1. Don't become a crusader. Although motivated by lofty, compassionate ideals, the crusader's lack of wisdom can in the long run cause more harm than good. Keep the hand of compassion firmly in the hand of wisdom. One mistake a crusader might make is to find evil where it is not, or exagerate it, causing unnecesary discomfort at the least.

2. I assume you are of European descent (have I missed something?). Don't fall into that trap of bemoaning all the awful things your dead ancestors did to other people's dead ancestors. The world is replete w/ injustice and always has been, and in ages past when life was much shorter and more brutal (as it still is in many places outside the "developed" world) regardless of the nostalgia myth, people were far more ready to do things to other people that those of us blessed enough to live in the comfort of the developped world now, would never tink seriously of doing. What am I trying to say?
a. If the Chinese, Zulu, Japanese, Indians, Iroqois, Aztecs, Egyptians, Babylonians, or Persians had acheived the technological level of Western Europe first, knowing HUMAN (not any specific racial group) nature, do you really think it would have been terribly different?
b. So please don't become a sniveling self loathing masichistic white boy. No one likes that. See the whole picture and be careful about judgements, including judging yourself, especially for things you did not do.

Of course be compassionate. Understand the effects of evil are often long lived. Yes, people make shallow judgements sometimes based on trivialities like physical diferences and yes, most people feel comfortable around similar people, but this is to a very large extent natural hardwiring, not necisarily terribly significant.

[Captain]

Originally posted by bigvic
Yeah captain, I respect your opinion and all, but i just don't think there is a racist element in CIv III. Yeah, I know, everyone has preconcieved notions and all that, but I don't think the firaxis team even thought about this, and if they did, any racist overtones were the result of sloth, not malevolence. Anyhoos, kudos to the sense of righteousness and desire to justice,

Thank you bigvic, i appreciate your response. I do agree with you, I only take a harder line because it does feel like I am in the minority of those who do care. It is too easy for the majority to silence the minority of voices speaking out. History has shown this as the primary way the status quo is maintained. I feel as though someone has to be willing to stand up to the majority of naysayers and say "listen, please take a minute to consider this. it is important to some people and if you would only think about it for a while, you would see how little it costs you to be supportive and how damaging it is when you try to silence someone else". And I do see some responses as being harsh enough to discourage some others who would otherwise speak out. I've taught in classrooms before and one of the things hardest for a teacher to realize is how much a student fears to speak their mind. if it's not fear of the teacher, it's fear of their peers. one of the greatest challenges is getting a child to ask a question when they don't understand. learning is not worth the embarassment of appearing stupid. raising an issue in class is not worth risking your group acceptance. who will raise the question of America's response to 9/11 in a classroom? no one dares when the authorities and the majority will shout you down.
this is not a classroom, but the phenomenon remains. when you make it clear that some opinions are unwelcome, only the firmest in their convictions will remain steadfast if at all. the rest who may have had something to say in support will be cowed by fears of rejection and the need for acceptance. Someone needs to stand up, and hopefully by example, show others that they needn't be afraid of the crowd, because the crowd is not homogenous. They are not alone. There are many others who agree with them but are just as silenced. Sometimes it takes a Terry Malloy (On the Waterfront, 1954).

but be careful - for two reasons.

1. Don't become a crusader. Although motivated by lofty, compassionate ideals, the crusader's lack of wisdom can in the long run cause more harm than good. Keep the hand of compassion firmly in the hand of wisdom. One mistake a crusader might make is to find evil where it is not, or exagerate it, causing unnecesary discomfort at the least.

You show great insight here, and I take your advice in consideration. I don't always know if what I am doing is the best thing, but I hope you can understand my reasons a little better now. I am just trying to do what I think is right.

2. I assume you are of European descent (have I missed something?).

Why would you assume that?

I have posted somewhere on these forums, a long time ago, indications as to my ethnic heritage and you can find that if you're curious enough. But I won't say yes or no or give any more indications here. I would not want to "colour" some people's image of me. While I do live in Canada, we are from the world over and often mixes of many.

Don't fall into that trap of bemoaning all the awful things your dead ancestors did to other people's dead ancestors. The world is replete w/ injustice and always has been, and in ages past when life was much shorter and more brutal (as it still is in many places outside the "developed" world) regardless of the nostalgia myth, people were far more ready to do things to other people that those of us blessed enough to live in the comfort of the developped world now, would never tink seriously of doing. What am I trying to say?
a. If the Chinese, Zulu, Japanese, Indians, Iroqois, Aztecs, Egyptians, Babylonians, or Persians had acheived the technological level of Western Europe first, knowing HUMAN (not any specific racial group) nature, do you really think it would have been terribly different?
b. So please don't become a sniveling self loathing masichistic white boy. No one likes that. See the whole picture and be careful about judgements, including judging yourself, especially for things you did not do.

Very true. but I do need to see what has happened in the past to understand how things go the way they are today. For example, it is true that a disproportionate number of blacks are in jail in the US. Does that mean they have worse morals? We need to see that they also do worse economically. Is that because they're bad business people? They also do do worse in schools and attend less school. Is that because they're more stupid? whites do have certain privileges, unearned, over blacks. It would be a denial of reality and racist to attribute the worse socio-economic conditions to the poor innate charateristics of blacks. For there to be justice in this world, we do have to do something to correct past injustices. We can't give back the years of slavery, but we can focus more energy and resources into education and opportunities for blacks. Unfair? Yes. But the playing field was never fair to being with. We are only trying to bring them to the same place that whites already are at through nothing more than their unearned privileges. It is not self-loathing, it is not about revenge, or even trying to correct a past wrong. It is simply trying to make a better future by being aware of the past.

Of course be compassionate. Understand the effects of evil are often long lived. Yes, people make shallow judgements sometimes based on trivialities like physical diferences and yes, most people feel comfortable around similar people, but this is to a very large extent natural hardwiring, not necisarily terribly significant.

Everything you wrote was true, but I take issue with the last four words. Not necessarily terribly significant? when you are the only one of your ethnocultural group in the class, the workplace, the social event, and the rest of the people feel more comfortable around similar people and making shallow judgements about you based on your physical differences, and you find yourself on the outside looking in, that's significant. I worked at a school where I saw such things, and believe me, it does a great deal of harm. Very significant.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Andrew Cory

Well, actualy, they didn't, and "Andrew Cory" isn't as much my real name as "Kamrat X" is yours. *grin* Ain't the Web great?

When someone names himself "Andrew Cory" one could easily assume this is his real name. Like MarkG or DanQ...

The problem is that if you give a man a fish every day for a year, he becomes dependant upon you. Simply giving money away doesn't do much (ask the sweeds about how much better off the Kenyens are with all the aid the swiss have sent them.) That isn't to say that they don't work hard-- they do. But hard work doesn't nessicarily equal wealth. the only thing that will allow under-developed nations to develop is bringing them into the world market. That won't happen just by tossing money at them. No one seems to have come to a better conclusion as to how to fix the problem, however...

I beg to differ. The redistribution of wealth won´t make people dependent, it just evens out the differences. Then the world trade can be dealt with in a more equal fashion. I´m by no means an adversary to free trade, I just have another definition of "free"

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Assur


The Pals can go to hell for cheering and celebrating when thousands of people were dying in the WTC towers (and for blowing up teenagers and grandma's too)

This was footage from a completely different occasion, and Associated Press admitted this IIRC.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Captain


well, it was an on-topic discussion. we were talking about civ 3, it was a game concept of assimilation, and what it meant to different people.
I saw it one way, and found it in opposition to my beliefs. others saw it another way, and if I could see it the same way, I wouldn't have a problem with it. so maybe a graphic change would have been all that was necessary, even if it led to tokenism.
we got sidetracked, but i won't go into that. readerso fthe thread can see that for themselves, and so can the mods.
i think, though, at this point, we've gotten so sidetracked that we're no longer on topic.
so if the mods want to close this thread, I think now would be a good time.
besides, closing threads tends to attract more viewers, no?

This whole thread has turned into several discussions which are now not even remotely aquainted to the original topic, I´ll suppose I´m as much to blame for this as anyone else...

[Andrew Cory]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
When someone names himself "Andrew Cory" one could easily assume this is his real name. Like MarkG or DanQ...

Fair enough. There is a long story behind this name, but it isn't worth the telling. I tend to keep it because I am actualy rather well known on certain parts of the web, and if someone sees a post by me, they might want to know that it _is_ me...

Originally posted by Kamrat X
I beg to differ. The redistribution of wealth won´t make people dependent, it just evens out the differences. Then the world trade can be dealt with in a more equal fashion. I´m by no means an adversary to free trade, I just have another definition of "free"

When I read the phrase "redistribution of wealth", I commonly infer it to mean "hand piles of cash to everyone". This causes the problems that I refered to. If you mean somthing else by it, please let me know...

BTW: have you ever taken an economics class?

[Andrew Cory]

Originally posted by Captain
History has shown this as the primary way the status quo is maintained. I feel as though someone has to be willing to stand up to the majority of naysayers and say "listen, please take a minute to consider this. it is important to some people and if you would only think about it for a while, you would see how little it costs you to be supportive and how damaging it is when you try to silence someone else".

Just because we are rolling our eyes at you, and you are in the minority, doesn't mean that you are right.

Originally posted by Captain
Very true. but I do need to see what has happened in the past to understand how things go the way they are today. For example, it is true that a disproportionate number of blacks are in jail in the US. Does that mean they have worse morals? We need to see that they also do worse economically. Is that because they're bad business people? They also do do worse in schools and attend less school. Is that because they're more stupid? whites do have certain privileges, unearned, over blacks. It would be a denial of reality and racist to attribute the worse socio-economic conditions to the poor innate charateristics of blacks.

*sigh* It is true that for a long time, the African-American population was oppresed. It is also true that there is less racism in America Today than is commonly thought. Many of the issues you speak of (large population in jail, lower economic status, worse performance in school, etc) stem not from current racism that exists today, but rather that often within these groups success is seen as treason to the group. Don't take my word for it, compare how well African-Americans do as a group to how well recent African immagrents to the US do. Many of the problems African-Americans face are internaly imposed, not externaly...

[Captain]

Originally posted by Andrew Cory

Just because we are rolling our eyes at you, and you are in the minority, doesn't mean that you are right.

What are you trying to say?
Would it be helpful for me to say that just because you are in the majority, that you are not necessarily right either?
let the arguments speak for themselves. I only hope to provide a counterweight to the push of the majority.

*sigh* It is true that for a long time, the African-American population was oppresed. It is also true that there is less racism in America Today than is commonly thought. Many of the issues you speak of (large population in jail, lower economic status, worse performance in school, etc) stem not from current racism that exists today, but rather that often within these groups success is seen as treason to the group. Don't take my word for it, compare how well African-Americans do as a group to how well recent African immagrents to the US do. Many of the problems African-Americans face are internaly imposed, not externaly...

I don't think you can separate the factors. External and internal are intertwined. Attitudes are learned. If one is a slave, one learns to behave like a slave. The mindset of a slave is one that is conditioned by being born into it and having it impressed from every side. It is an attitude that is often passed down from generation to generation. Admittedly a culture of victimhood can prevail, but surely you can see that it has it's origins in genuine victimhood? Thus, there is a role for compensatory actions to play. symbolically and pragmatically, it can help lead out of the cycle if those inside are willing. I do not lay the blame on one side only. But the work is never finished. Let's not deceive ourselves into thinking that we've arrived.


As an aside, I am quite surprised the mods have not shut this thread down as it is just barely hanging onto the original thread, and not even discussing civ 3 anymore.

[August Borms]

Originally posted by Kamrat X


This was footage from a completely different occasion, and Associated Press admitted this IIRC.

CNN did not air decade-old footage of Palestinians dancing in the streets. Eason Jordan, CNN's Chief News Executive, confirmed that the video used on CNN was in fact shot on Tuesday, 11 September 2001, in East Jerusalem by a Reuters TV crew, not during the Persian Gulf conflict of 1990-91 -- a fact proved by its inclusion of comments from a Palestinian praising Osama Bin Laden (whose name was unlikely to have come up ten years earlier in connection with the invasion and liberation of Kuwait) as well as the appearance in the video of post-1991 automobiles. The person who made the claim quoted above has since recanted.

(The argument that the footage CNN used could not possibly be real because it showed Palestinians in broad daylight not long after the attack -- even though Palestinian territory is several time zones ahead of New York -- is not valid. Eastern Daylight Time in the United States is six hours behind the area of the Middle East referred to as Palestine. Thus, when the first attack occurred in New York just before 9:00 A.M., Palestine time would have been 3:00 P.M., and the area would still have been bathed in plenty of mid-afternoon sunlight.)

Reuters, the international news agency whose camera crew shot the footage, issued the following statement:

Reuters rejects as utterly baseless an allegation being circulated by e-mail and the Internet claiming that it circulated 10-year-old videotape to illustrate Palestinians celebrating in the wake of the September 11 tragedies in the United States.
Reuters welcomes a statement by the Universidad Estatal de Campinas-Brasil (UNICAMP), one of whose students was the author of the original e-mail, setting the record straight.

The videotape in question was shot in East Jerusalem by a Reuters camera crew on September 11 in the immediate aftermath of the attacks on the United States. The footage was broadcast by CNN and other subscribers to the Reuters video news service.

http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/cnn.htm

[Andrew Cory]

Originally posted by Assur
not during the Persian Gulf conflict of 1990-91 -- a fact proved by its inclusion of comments from a Palestinian praising Osama Bin Laden (whose name was unlikely to have come up ten years earlier in connection with the invasion and liberation of Kuwait)

Beyond that, as the palistinians sided with Sadam durring the second persian gulf war, and that the liberation of Kwait was ocasioned with the expulsion of somthing like 20,000 palistinians from Kwait, I doubt very much that the palistinians were clebrating the conclusion of that war...

[Coracle]

Originally posted by Andrew Cory

Just because we are rolling our eyes at you, and you are in the minority, doesn't mean that you are right.


. . . compare how well African-Americans do as a group to how well recent African immagrents to the US do. Many of the problems African-Americans face are internaly imposed, not externaly...

The worst RACISTS - and anti-Semites - I have ever encountered were and are BLACK.

Here in NYC I well recall black racist Al Sharpton leading mobs screaming "yellow monkeys" at the Korean grocery they were boycottiing. Another black lesder was Sonny Carson - an avowed anti-white bigot.

Sharpton helped foment the Crown Heights riots calling the Jews all a bunch of "diamond merchants". Black mobs then went on a three day pogrom chanting "Kill the Jews!".

And not just Sharpton. And not just whites, Jews, and Koreans. Many blacks don't like Hispanics either.

Black racism - the REAL racism in America today.