Technologies

[Jon Shafer]

What technologies do you think should have been included in Civ III that weren't? Or maybe just split into a different category from a previously included one, i.e. alchemy from chemistry. I have a lot of ideas for what should have been included (or what was even possible, even if it did swamp the game with too many techs), but I want to see what you guys think.

[Primus40]

Interesting idea - alchemy. Would it allow you to transmute iron into gold or aluminum into uranium? Seems like that would make it very easy to blow off trading for strategic resources. Maybe it could take a large number of turns to do so and you could not stack workers on it - one worker limit. Maybe a new unit: Alchemist!

Sorry, don't have any other ideas for techs at the moment but will give it some thought and get back to you.

[Ribannah]

Alchemy is a valid advance, linking Iron Working and Medicine to Gunpowder and Metallurgy (and Coal Mining, in my tree). It has little to do with the King Midas syndrome (still, it would be nice to change your fourth source of horses into the saltpeter that you don't have and nobody is willing to trade for ).
But there are other techs I attach a higher priority to, such as
Canal Building, The Plough, The Mill, Enlightenment, Human Rights, Logistics, Telecommunication.

[nato]

Crop Rotation!

I would have included advances like that and like "Strip Mining". These advances would increase food and shield output of worked city squares ... no irrigation or mining!

[Jon Shafer]

I'm trying to design a better technology system for a new game, and I'm trying to get as many ideas as I can.

I felt that alchemy was an important step between simple geology - the study of rocks and minerals, and the advances of chemistry that brought about something practical. Alchemy directly led to further studies that eventually turned into the branch of chemistry today. Maybe you couldn't actually turn stuff into gold (after all, no one ever did... as far as I know ), but it could bring about other effects... what yet, I haven't thought about it.

Some new ones I thought were important (to get you started):
Tools, trade, diplomacy, ship building (screw map-making), alchemy, conscription (a result of nationalism, but not the same), explosive munitions, museums (it needs a better name, but I can't come up with one...), mass-production farming, radar, etc. Just stuff like that.

[nato]

Well in the interest of throwing out ideas (sorry if these are already done):

Division of Labor
Caste System
Atheism
Tectonic Plates
Slash and Burn
Horse Collar
Stirrup
Irrigation Society
Motion Pictures
Geopolitics
Tourism
Relativity
Bureaucracy
Fractional Reserve Banking
Motte and Baily
Cement
Glass
Trial by Jury
Domestication of Animals
Hydrogen Fuel Cells
Standard Weights and Measures
Standardized Parts
Double Entry Accounting
Operations Research
Skyscrapers
Home Appliances
Canned Food
Urban Planning

Oh I could go on... nothing really special, but if only one or two are winners, its worth it.

Any special area you're interested in, like economics, politics, social, military, etc.?

[Jon Shafer]

Thanks, I should be able to use those.

The things I probably need most are technologies from the ancient era.. I have to admit that's the most sketchy period of time for me, especially in advances in warfare... I know tons about warfare from the middle ages on, but my knowledge is fairly limited before that (other than the Roman Army).

Some of those things you mentioned are a bit too deep to include (though I do want you to be able to research a lot). However, some of the things I liked were Motte and Bailey (castle building), skyscrapers, slash and burn, caste system, etc. Things that you think had a very deep effect on society... for example, skyscrapers made it possible for cities to grow upwards, instead of outwards, making companies more efficient, allowing them to produce more goods, and make more money, etc.

[Harovan]

Not to forget the invention of beer. Causes +2 happy male citizens and +1 unhappy female citizen. With democracy, women start to drink too and the effect changes to +2 happy citizens of any gender.

[dunk]

Actually, beer and other alcoholic beverages were important in civilizations. The alcohol kills bacteria and other pathogens in the water and made it safer to drink. And since there are cities which can be size 7 with all male or all female citizens, the effects would be haphazard.

I like a few of those ideas up there in the laundry list.

Ones I like with some ideas on what they could do...

Tourism... make an improvement called tourist bureau which produces culture.

Cement... gives roads 4 movement as opposed to 3.

Glass... I like the idea, but can't think of a use in the game.

Urban Planning... this should allow mass transits, increase the "born content" number by 1 or 2, increase the defensive bonus of the two bigger size cities (>6 and >12).

Fuel Cells... reduces population pollution. Maybe another "Hoover Dam" type wonder.

Ones I don't like...

Horse Collar & Stirrup... Too AOE. These come with Horseback Riding. We could put Scale Armor and Chainmail in there too.

What's Motte & Baily? Are these people?

Standardized Parts is already in the game as Replaceable Parts.

Caste System is already in the game as Feudalism.

Standard Weights and Measures can be considered included with Currency. After all, that's what currency is. $1 = X pounds of gold, silver, or whatever. Well, it used to be.

The others I'm not sure what they would do.

[Jon Shafer]

I'm actually trying to aim things more towards my game than Civ III (shhh, don't tell anyone), so the aspects of "male VS female" citizens, and happy faces, and culture are beyond (or aside from) what I'm aiming for, but either way, I can adapt the suggestions.

Originally posted by dunk999
Actually, beer and other alcoholic beverages were important in civilizations. The alcohol kills bacteria and other pathogens in the water and made it safer to drink. And since there are cities which can be size 7 with all male or all female citizens, the effects would be haphazard.

I'll consider it.

Tourism... make an improvement called tourist bureau which produces culture.

Another thing that this would bring about would be more income. Smaller countries would be able to generate revenue with the majority based upon tourism, as holds true today. Another thing this could lead to is a mixing of nationalities (one factor in my game), which could lead to more interesting situations.

Cement... gives roads 4 movement as opposed to 3.

I like it. Good for my game, useless for Civ III. Railroads give unlimited movement? Hmmm, okay.

Glass... I like the idea, but can't think of a use in the game.

Glass could be required in order to build modern machines, skyscrapers, etc. The only problem is that glass was invented millenia ago (just watched a show on it on the History Channel yesterday afternoon ), so maybe it could be "Automated Glass Production" or something like that instead.

Urban Planning... this should allow mass transits, increase the "born content" number by 1 or 2, increase the defensive bonus of the two bigger size cities (>6 and >12).

Hmmmm, I like this idea. I could adapt it to allow... uhh, better efficiency and whatnot in larger cities. However, each city would have to be "upgraded" with this ability (in order to actually make things more organized... just developing a plan doesn't actually make anything better ). Definite possibilities here.

Fuel Cells... reduces population pollution. Maybe another "Hoover Dam" type wonder.

Haven't really thought about it yet (trying to work on history, not sci fi yet ).

Ones I don't like...

Horse Collar & Stirrup... Too AOE. These come with Horseback Riding. We could put Scale Armor and Chainmail in there too.

Yeah, this stuff has already been dealt with nicely by Horseback Riding.

What's Motte & Baily? Are these people?

Well, they might have been.
Actually it's a small wooden castle used in the early middle ages for feudal lords and whatnot. It could provide the benefits of a fortress, along with producing extra taxation or something in the city/region it's located in.

Standardized Parts is already in the game as Replaceable Parts.

Another thing that goes along with this is "Mechanization". Currently I have both in my list of techs to use, but I'm thinking I want to use one or the other. I think I like the sound of "Mechanization" better.

Caste System is already in the game as Feudalism.

Caste system implies more of a seperation of society, while feudalism is more of a way of life (distinctly in the middle ages, as well). Perhaps a better name for it could be derived... I can't think of one though.

Standard Weights and Measures can be considered included with Currency. After all, that's what currency is. $1 = X pounds of gold, silver, or whatever. Well, it used to be.

Hmmm, not sure how I could apply this. It had an impact on history, I suppose, but I'm really not sure how I could impliment it.

[Brizey]

Don't know if these help with your game, but...

In addition to the others mentioned, which were great:

Basic Machines (other than wheel: lever, wedge, etc. A precursor to masonry and construction)

Mass Electrification

Calculus/Applied Mathematics

Numerical Analysis

Plastics (Synthetic comes too late in Civ3)

Surgery

Antibiotics

Digital Control

Germ Theory

Cloning

Nutrition

Refrigeration

Fossil Fuels

Meteorology

Mechanized Agriculture

Student Loans/GI Bill

Television

Some of these obviously overlap each other and the existing advances, but if you want a big pool to pick from...

[Primus40]

Wow, catch a few hours sleep (what's that?) and things develop. Trip/Ribannah ~ just for the record; wasn't trying to imply that alchemey wasn't a valid idea. In fact I really did think it was interesting, but it was late (early?) and the King Midas thing is what popped into my head without much thought. Your concepts of it's use were enlightening, thanks. My secind intention was to see if maybe we could get this thread alive and kicking since it had seemed to be laying there with no response. Glad to say it worked.

There are some great things here and after a little thought I have a few for the list:

Machining - from a military perspective, truer gun barrels with longer range allow riflemen/infantry to be more effective (more attack). Or, could be fit into the Industrialization/Replaceable Parts idea.

Marksmenship - possibly allowing a sniper type unit. One that can strike with deadly accuracy from one or two squares away. Maybe the Leathal Bombard ability could allow this to occur with a ground unit. But with a rifle crack sound FX.

Special Operations - maybe allowing an army like "unit" that has both Hidden Nationality and Stealth.

Public Education - a more modern idea to simple education. Sure, higher education has been around for a long time but even now it is somewhat elitist (hopefully not starting an off-topic rash of posts - not the point of this or the thread). I am talking about the simple fact of the general public being able to read and write contributing to increased awareness, mass communication... and greater populace in higher education facilities. Gotta be a research bonus there somewhere.

Microbiology - some of these could just be transitioning techs (like this one). Leading to Cure for Cancer and Longevity. But it could also open the door for militaristic things like...

Biological Warfare - allowing a Nuke-type device that effects game, population, food sources.

Distillation - not sure where to take this one but the beer post earlier made it stick in my mind. dunk999 provided some background on the relevance of alcohol to ancient civs. All true, but it was a far different concoction then what we consider to be alcoholic beverage. Distillation gave us the liquors of today. But that process has also been migrated to other areas... haven't thought this one through but am throwing it out anyhow.

Craftsmanship - another last minute thought. Nice word, any suggestions on practical application?

Telecommunications was another good one suggested, maybe advanced communications. In real life, advances in communication (from printing press on up) contributed to discovery rates in science and technology... and it is a snowball effect with exponetial returns over time. This could be worked in there somewhere I am sure.

I know you mentioned that ancient military tech advances were of interest to you. I used to know quite a bit about that stuff years ago, but I am afraid that different directions in life have relegated that information to the dark recesses of what is left of my mind. C'mon, I know they are a BUNCH of historians out there that could contribute in this area. Give us your thoughts!

[Deornwulf]

Sources for tech

Check out Imperialism II for a host of great ideas if you want to focus the technologies into a tighter range of developments. Along military lines, every age had its own strategic developments. Stirrups made cavalry possible, others include the Napoleonic square, Trench warfare, Air Tactics, Naval Tactics, and guerilla warfare to just name a few.

Some advanced technologies that would be interesting include

Nanotechnology
Cold Fusion
Arcologies
Bionics
Cybernetics
Fiber Optics
Ion Engines
Gravimetrics and/or Artificial Gravity

If you look through the skill lists of your favorite RPG's you could probably find even more ideas. Shadowrun, Star Trek, Star Wars, and Star Frontiers would be good for advanced techs while Rolemaster and Hackmaster would be good for ancient ones.

[notyoueither]

While studying Newton I noted with some mirth that he was particularly interested in Alchemy right about the time he was made governor of the Bank of England. Coincidentally, rapid expansion of the British Empire begins at about the same time.

Que music. Ne ne ne ne ne ne ne ne

[nato]

I have one very minor ancient warfare thing.

Before the stirrup (which was super important, AOE or not) charging cavalry developed a method of letting go of the spear right before impact, so as not to be knocked off the horse. This helped make Alexander's Companion cavalry so tough.

However, if you're going to lump in stirrup with basic horseback riding, fine distinctions aren't of interest to you. At this level, the current techs are pretty sufficient. The only thing really important that is missing is horse archers.