Which civs could be replaced by a worthier civ?

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
*desperately tries to drag topic back on*

So who's more worthless...the French or the English?

Napoleon owns you!

And so does Germany!

[Boris Godunov]

Duh...I forgot one of the most influentual aspects of the Germans.

It was two Germans who formulated a social theory that would change the entire world and touch every corner of the globe.

Karl Marx and Frederich Engels.

[Jon Shafer]

Germans also invented: The modern bicycle (Baron Karl von Drais de Sauerbrun), bunsen burner (Robert Wilhelm Bunsen ), blue jeans (Levi Strauss), kindergarden (Friedrich Wilhelm August Fröbel), the first globe (Martin Behaim), the gas powered motorcycle (Gottlieb Daimler), the first x-ray detector (Wilhelm Konrad von Roentgen), the first refracting telescope (Hans Lippershey), and the Richter Scale (Charles Francis Richter), among other things.

[SpencerH]

I think we're arguing with different definitions of culture. So I'll try to explain my point of view.

One way to express this is that a civs culture is an abstract link between the people in that civ. In some cases objects or ideas are metaphors for the culture, but not in all cases.

For example, I dont know whether the Chinese invented chopsticks, but chopsticks are a metaphor for chinese culture to the west. On the other hand Benz invented the automobile (I'll take your word for it) but when people see an automobile they dont think of Germany.

The same concept applies to ideas as well. Marx and Engels have had enormous effect of the world, but if everyone (and I'm not saying they do) believes them to be russian they cant be accounted as part of German culture.

IMO there are more objects and ideas on a world wide scope that are metaphors for chinese culture than there are for German culture. That doesnt mean they are more important, but simply that they are identifiable as belonging to a particular culture (rightly or in some cases wrongly). The polynesians invented surfing, but it is a metaphor of American culture. In this way chinese culture is more world-wide in scope than the Germans.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Trip
Germans also invented: -- blue jeans (Levi Strauss), --

A Californian from Germany invented Jeans. He wouldn't have done that in Germany since they were invented for gold miners.

[Jon Shafer]

Ahhh, but I said a German invented it, didn't I? I didn't say anything else.

[Ethelred]

As a Californian I felt it was important to make it "Perfectly clear", to quote another Californian.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by SpencerH
I think we're arguing with different definitions of culture. So I'll try to explain my point of view.

One way to express this is that a civs culture is an abstract link between the people in that civ. In some cases objects or ideas are metaphors for the culture, but not in all cases.

I find that definition to be far too susceptible to the vagaries of personal biases and arbitrary whims, but you can define things as you want.

For example, I dont know whether the Chinese invented chopsticks, but chopsticks are a metaphor for chinese culture to the west. On the other hand Benz invented the automobile (I'll take your word for it) but when people see an automobile they dont think of Germany.

I know plenty of people when they see a car think of German engineering (and you can look up Benz easily, so don't take my word for it. I hope you're not implying I'd lie to you?) But this again is arbitrarily using, instead of meaningful impact on the world, cultural stereotyping. Chopsticks have done diddly-squat to effect the future of the globe, so to cite them as indicative of cultural influence I think is silly. But to humor you, I think you should see your perspective here as indicative of your immersion within a Eurocentric bias. You are so used to the influences of German culture that you live them as your own and don't think twice about them. But as you are unfamiliar with Chinese culture, the chopsticks are therefore more exotic and stick out in your mind more. But you drink Beer all the time. When I think Beer, I think German. When I see a hotdog (Frankfurter?) or sausage, I think German. Leiderhosen? Now come on, can you *seriously* say German culture hasn't made as much of an impact? Think about it harder.

The same concept applies to ideas as well. Marx and Engels have had enormous effect of the world, but if everyone (and I'm not saying they do) believes them to be russian they cant be accounted as part of German culture.

In which case, you should withdraw your mention of gunpowder, silk and porcelain, because I'd wager 99% of people don't think of China when they think of these things.

IMO there are more objects and ideas on a world wide scope that are metaphors for chinese culture than there are for German culture.

I think you're quite wrong. See my comment above--you're just so immersed in them that you haven't taken notice. Take a walk into your local Barnes & Noble History section. I'd say we have there a good idea of popular conceptions of what is important. You can just see the number of shelves devoted to German History as opposed to Chinese. A small, perhaps trivial example, but I think one crucial aspect of a culture's impact is how much it generates in such things.

All of this aside (Why you are arguing still about the Chinese I don't know) I REALLY want to get a rational explanation for your baffling choice of the Mongols over the Germans, using your criteria. Aside from Mongolian Beef, they got nuttin!

The polynesians invented surfing, but it is a metaphor of American culture. In this way chinese culture is more world-wide in scope than the Germans.

I'd hate to think a large part of what your considering Chinese world-wide culture is based on the racist stereotypes which Westerners have made about Chinese culture, but that seems to be what you are hinting at...

At any rate, I appreciate the explanation, but I don't think such a narrow and arbitrary notion of culture would fly with most anthropologists or sociologists. In addition, it still doesn't rebut the point I've made again and again: For just the past century, German civilization as inexorably and dramatically altered the course of world history and civilization, for better or for worse. I think that alone should be pretty convincing to even the biggest German-haters for German inclusion among the most influential civilizations in the world.

[Jon Shafer]

Boris.

[siredgar]

Chopsticks are an efficient eating utensil and a civilized means of taking food into your mouth. They require a certain degree of dexterity and elegance when used properly. Also, they make you take longer to consume less food. On the other hand, a fork and knife tends to encourage "shoveling" behavior. Worse yet, is just a spoon or your bare hands. Because of this, many American vegetarians use chopsticks even when they don't eat Asian food.

[Boris Godunov]

I'm an American vegetarian who is quite adroit with chopsticks, thank you very much.

But which is more important...chopsticks...or beer and pretzels?!

*oompahpah oompahpah*

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

I find that definition to be far too susceptible to the vagaries of personal biases and arbitrary whims, but you can define things as you want.

While you havent provided a definition, it seems clear that like too many Americans you think culture is something that can be quantified (like shiny objects).

(and you can look up Benz easily, so don't take my word for it. I hope you're not implying I'd lie to you?)

No I dont think you're lying, but you may be mistaken. You did claim that the Germans invented the sausage.

But this again is arbitrarily using, instead of meaningful impact on the world, cultural stereotyping.

Culture doesnt have to have meaningful impact. Do you claim that MacDonalds is not an American cultural icon or that it has meaningful impact?

Chopsticks have done diddly-squat to effect the future of the globe, so to cite them as indicative of cultural influence I think is silly. But to humor you, I think you should see your perspective here as indicative of your immersion within a Eurocentric bias. You are so used to the influences of German culture that you live them as your own and don't think twice about them. But as you are unfamiliar with Chinese culture, the chopsticks are therefore more exotic and stick out in your mind more. But you drink Beer all the time. When I think Beer, I think German. When I see a hotdog (Frankfurter?) or sausage, I think German. Leiderhosen? Now come on, can you *seriously* say German culture hasn't made as much of an impact? Think about it harder.

I grew up in a chinese culture so I think its quite likely that I know a great deal more about them from a cultural perspective than you.

In which case, you should withdraw your mention of gunpowder, silk and porcelain, because I'd wager 99% of people don't think of China when they think of these things.

You associate an American or Japanese car with Germany but you dont associate gunpowder, silk and porcelain with China

I think you're quite wrong. See my comment above--you're just so immersed in them that you haven't taken notice. Take a walk into your local Barnes & Noble History section. I'd say we have there a good idea of popular conceptions of what is important. You can just see the number of shelves devoted to German History as opposed to Chinese. A small, perhaps trivial example, but I think one crucial aspect of a culture's impact is how much it generates in such things.

You are mistaking history for culture. They are not inter-changable although one may have impact on the other.

[QUOTE] All of this aside (Why you are arguing still about the Chinese I don't know) I REALLY want to get a rational explanation for your baffling choice of the Mongols over the Germans, using your criteria. Aside from Mongolian Beef, they got nuttin![QUOTE]

I thought it was pretty clear, but I'll repeat it for you. The criteria that I put forth were civs with world-wide cultural impact and/or world-wide empires. The chinese were included based on culture (that was your original target for "why werent the Germans there". The Mongolians were included beacause of their empire not their culture.

At any rate, I appreciate the explanation, but I don't think such a narrow and arbitrary notion of culture would fly with most anthropologists or sociologists. In addition, it still doesn't rebut the point I've made again and again: For just the past century, German civilization as inexorably and dramatically altered the course of world history and civilization, for better or for worse. I think that alone should be pretty convincing to even the biggest German-haters for German inclusion among the most influential civilizations in the world.

No one could claim that Germany hasnt had an impact on the history of the 20 th century. Again you are mistaking culture for history.

[Ribannah]

While I'm not about to throw any of them out, at gunpoint I would select the following order of removal:

[1] Zulus (nice spears)
[2] Aztecs (short-lived local bullwhip)
[3] Persia (one of many similar empires, didn't do anything great)

To be replaced with eg Ethiopia, Maya, Arabia.

[MarkG]

No one should be removed from the game, only added.