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I want the Senate back!! - with improvements

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  • #16
    If you were to make a senate it needs to be smart. It can not just go around making cease-fires and peace treaties. If you were in a senate and an enemy power continualy broke treaties and were aggressive to you, would you vote to continue to ask for cease fires, in many different encounters? If you are a powerful civ you would give in to threats or make the enemy feel your wrath to make sure he does not threaten you again. If you felt you needed expansion to keep security for your country or get resources so you would not be dependent on other nations. You would declare war if you thought you could win.

    This means a senate would have to have certain objects when it decides to agree to war. It also needs to realize when it should continue a war and not stop half-way thought it. It also needs to realize when war should not be declared. No government stops a war it started unless it has achieved its goals, feels it has been beaten and wants to stop while they are not totaly destroyed, or finaly stop because you do not exist.

    I know a few times in US history where Congress encouraged war, which was the Mexican war, the war with Spain, and the war of 1812. In all of these wars, the US declared war on the other country 1st or forced the other country to declare war on them because of the circumstances. I do not need to go into details on US history, so i will not explain the details. The fact of the matter is that in those three cases the Congress wanted land, whether it be Canada, California, or caribean islands. War should be easily declared in a senate when there are clear goals for the war. If you decided to beat up on the little country for exapansion, strategic positions, or a resource, a senate should approve it most of the time. Big wars were common, pre-modern era.

    I think with a republican/democratic government it should be easy to declare war before the UN and harder afterwards because of international scrutiny. No one really cared if Big Country X hurt small country Y as long as it did not effect Big Country Z. However in a modern world, if a country were to invade another, it would an international disaster unless there was a solid reason. Would the world like it if the US decided to invade mexico tommarow? Would the US citizens like it? NO, because there is no reason to declare war on a long time friend.

    The senate would also have to understand that it should be more easy to declare war on a long time enemy, then a long time friend.

    Right now what keeps a repbulican/democratic government in check is war weariness. That is basically your country telling you to stop the war. However I think it would add to the game if they could add this diplomatic stuff, it would really add to the modern age where it does lack, at least for me. Plus it would add something to do besides micromanaging stuff.

    In sumation a senate would be very enjoyable and could add to the game, along with a revamped UN wonder, the modern era needs something.

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    • #17
      NO SENATE

      There is no point in playing a game where you cannot even control it. That's why games exist. We cannot control the world; we don't won't the same in a game.
      Est-ce que tu as vu une baleine avec un queue taché?
      If you don't feel the slightist bit joyful seeing the Iraqis dancing in the street, then you are lost to the radical left. If you don't feel the slightest bit bad that we had to use force to do this, then you are lost to the radical right.

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      • #18
        I think the Senate can exist. But, in a different way. Imagine this... The Senate says to you (leader) "We have passed a resolution stating that we want an end to war with CIV X on (favorable/neutral/unfavorable) terms." Now, you have a choice here. End the war and comply with the Senate or continue the war and push war weariness through the roof, disable the draft, risk a revolution (simply anarchy for X turns) where you get put back as leader, risk deserting troops, foreign relations go down the toilet, other civs more likely to help your foe.

        Now, if your Senate wants a peace with favorable terms, that means you can wage war until your opponent caves and gives you something along with a peace treaty. Neutral means the Senate wants just a peace treaty or the other civ to give stuff. Unfavorable means the Senate is willing to accept making payments to the enemy.

        Good idea eh?

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        • #19
          I think democratic or republican governments should have more inter-action with the the player and vice-versa, I guess theres only war wearines doing that. The kind and level of interaction can be elaborated in many-a-ways.

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          • #20
            (1) I definitely do NOT want a senate that behaves stupidly; that's one area where I don't want the game to be too realistic.

            (2) I think Soren and company have better things they can do with their time than trying to figure out how to make a senate smart enough not to be excessively annoying.

            So while in principle, a well-enough implemented senate might be a worthwhile addition (assuming Civ players could agree on what constitutes "well-implemented"), in practice, I'm perfectly happy without it.

            Nathan

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            • #21
              Originally posted by ACooper

              Making threats against an elected leader in the United States is a federal offense. The Marshal's will be at your door soon. Go with them quietly.
              Making threats may be illegal, but engaging in wishful thinking out loud is a constitutionally protected rightl.

              Nathan

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              • #22
                rightl???? what is this "rightl"???

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                • #23
                  It's like left, but more to the side.
                  Lime roots and treachery!
                  "Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten

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                  • #24
                    I think rightl is closer to leftl then left. Note the "l"s after each word.

                    I hated the senate in Civ2. Especially when the AI would attack me, and then after I landed a huge army in the AIs territory, they would ask for, and be given a cease fire, and peace treaty.

                    Steele
                    If this were a movie, there'd be a tunnel or something near here for us to escape through.....

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                    • #25
                      Can anyone explain why the cease-fire option in Civ II was removed from the diplomatic options in Civ III? Was it some sort of way to "simplify" the game again? Sheesh.

                      Gatekeeper
                      "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire

                      "Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius

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                      • #26
                        Probably because the same functionality can be achieved by making a temporary peace treaty - and then not renewing it after 20 turns.
                        I'm building a wagon! On some other part of the internets, obviously (but not that other site).

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                        • #27
                          NO STINKIN SENATE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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