The facts on Spear/Tank Phenomonon, please

[TitanTim]

Yup. I can understand freak events like this happening. Once again my argument is that it shouldn't happen again the next turn. (Not to mention that the Swarzenegger crewman should become a leader for winning such a lopsided battle).

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by TitanTim
I think the game would be more fair if units had 10 hit points and bonus attack ratings for experience of the unit as SMAC had (green @ -25% to elite @ +50%).

The more hitpoints, the more lag, as hitpoints equate to die rolls.

And yes, the "Arnold" unit should be promoted for defeating the alien warrior. Of course, the alien has a legitimate complaint about the combat system, and should email Firaxis.

[Grumbold]

It didn't happe again the next turn, because your unit won that time (if only just).

The combat system heavily favours the stronger side already (but remember to add in all the defensive multipliers before attacking!) More hitpoints would make any fight with odds of worse than 60/40 a foregone conclusion for the stronger unit. Some people just draw an arbitrary line and say "unit X can never ever lose to unit Y therefore the combat system must change". They are trying to fix the outcome (widely disparate combat units in any age) rather than the cause (inadequate number of techs to give lots of unit types, AI that won't upgrade, no international arms trade selling rifles to 3rd world revolutionaries, all modern units dependant on certain resources etc)

[planetfall]

Exceptionally well presented thread issue.

I also have read about the spearman/tank phenonemon. I concur that the uproar over the event is much greater than game reality. In current game lost several tanks to spearman, BUT all seemed reasonable. The panzers were weakened and usually not elite. They were attacked by a mass of 5-10 spearman/rifleman stacks. Yes I loss a few panzers, but they lost many more units than I did. What would be a horrible fix would be to make this impossible. This time I have tanks, but what if I don't have rubber. There has to be some hope of coming ahead.

There are far more important game play issues than the spearman vs tank issue. This does not seem to effect game play like excessive tech devaluation and lack of variety in winning play styles for late middle and end games.

[Spec]

*reply to top post*

It happens on deity a bit and SOMETIMES on emperor. But the're called flukes. If they didn't happen and my tanks always won it would be a pretty dull game.

Spec.

[Cyclotron]

It seems my recent observations are true. Nobody has yet posted that they thought Civ3 was unplayable because of the combat system. It would seem that the combat system is not flawed (the possiblility for flukes may make it more balanced than the foregone conclusion battles of Civ2). Rather, people simply percieve the results as unfair.

Grumbold brings up an excellent point that a more detailed tech and unit system would greatly reduce these problems, but this is more a matter of taste and preference than an actual flaw of the game.

For those who question the possibility of a tank defeating a spearman, I offer you this: Just because you are the only one who can make rifles doesn't mean you are the only one that has them. Iron-age people aren't stupid, they just don't have the techs and resources to equip mass forces with firearms and modern weapons. It's easy for me to imagine a ragtag band of spear-wielding natives who also have some old rifles or even grenades scrounged from the black market or the corpses of the few enemy soldiers they've killed. It's called arms diffusion; you can't control every gun your Civ has ever made.

[Zachriel]

Tamil Tiger rebels, about as far from the center of civilization as possible. "Primitive warriors."

[Deornwulf]

So what

So what if the spearman destroys tank #22; #23 - #27 will probably do the trick......

[Tuberski]

I think all the complaining comes from the people who save before combat, lose the combat, reload, and then lose it again!
I myself have done that on occasion, but I usually save so that if it goes really badly for me, I can reload and NOT choose to go to war. But I won't reload because I lost a unit.

[Zachriel]

Everyone with tanks who is afraid of spearmen, raise your hand.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Tuberski
...I usually save so that if it goes really badly for me, I can reload and NOT choose to go to war. But I won't reload because I lost a unit.

Bad Tuberski. Baaaddddd.

You are biting the hand of Fortuna. Beware her revenge.


Zach.

I live in constant dread that the paint on my units will be scratched. I have night-mares about actually losing a Tank to anything. As such I am officially swearing off Civ3. It is bad for my mental health.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Zach.

I live in constant dread that the paint on my units will be scratched. I have night-mares about actually losing a Tank to anything. As such I am officially swearing off Civ3. It is bad for my mental health.

Maybe your therapist will let you play after your treatment.

[Theodrik]

Spears vs. tanks

Ok, it's gonna take me a while to find it, but I know of a real-world occurance of spears vs tanks, well, spear-armed light horsemen vs. tanks. 1937, Italian occupationof Ethiopia, a Battallion of Itallian armor, advancing upon an Ethiopian strongpoint, unsupported by Infantry, was counter attacked by a horde of ethiopian light cavalry. The narrow bladed, thin shafted spears were able to enter the main gun barrels and view slots of the italian tanks, forcing the crews to open their hatches and fight with pistols and submachine guns against the swirlling mass of hosemen. The cav took lots of casulties, but the tanks lost. The late arriving, truck mounted infantry drove off the looting cav, but it was far too late. But then italian tanks were junk to start with, but I'd imagine the Italian commanding officer thinking; guns vs spears, tanks vs. horses, no problem, we'll just drive up there and they'll throw some rocks and run away!

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Tuberski
I think all the complaining comes from the people who save before combat, lose the combat, reload, and then lose it again!
I myself have done that on occasion, but I usually save so that if it goes really badly for me, I can reload and NOT choose to go to war. But I won't reload because I lost a unit.

It's ok to reload, as long as you know you lost that game, and just want to find out if you could have won -- if.
Indeed, reloading is the very best way to learn how to play.

[notyoueither]

Actually. Reloading is a completely valid way of debugging the game when 47 Mod Arm and 15 Mech Inf are lost to the culture flip of a large city. In my books anyway.

Go ahead. If cites are going to flip, great. Taking Patton's 3rd Army with them? It's a bug.