Missing Wonders of the World

[Dienstag]

[nerdmode]

The Great Wall is the only individual man-made object discernable from the surface of the moon with the naked eye.

Really? By my calculations, looking at the Great Wall from the moon would be like looking at a piece of string about a centimeter long from meter away. So lengthwise, it seems reasonable, but that piece of string would also be about 0.01 millimeters thick! That doesn't sound very visible to me. Got proof?
[/nerdmode]

Anyway, regardless of petty visibility questions, I think they should have more wonders in general. I would be concerned about the Temple of Artemis and the Statue of Zeus as wonders, not for the reasons already mentioned in this thread, but becuase of this: Their very titles lock you into a specific mythology that is inseperable with Greece. And while Civ games wisely say "The Great Wall in Leipzig" instead of "The Great Wall of China in Leipzig", that doesn't work so well with the above 'wonders'.

Do you want "The Temple of Artemis in Salamanca"? When did the Iroquois worship any specific goddesses, let alone ancient Greek ones? But what else could we do? "The Wonderful Temple in Salamanca"? "The Temple of the Important Local Goddess in Salamanca"? sorry, I just don't see how to take that true historical wonder of the world, and generalize it in such a way that it would be fitting for other civs to build it. Same for Zeus.

[cephyn]

Originally posted by Salvor

Also, many man-made objects can be seen from space, especially if you use a spy satellite. The Great Wall is the only individual man-made object discernable from the surface of the moon with the naked eye. Other man-made artifacts, particularly many city lights, are visible from the moon as well, but they are a conglomeration of many objects seen as one.

Myth, you can't see the great wall, let alone much else artificial, from the moon with the naked eye.

sheesh. Read my previous posts and the auxiliary websites.

[kailhun]

Originally posted by Salvor
Also, many man-made objects can be seen from space, especially if you use a spy satellite. The Great Wall is the only individual man-made object discernable from the surface of the moon with the naked eye.

I thought it had just been established that you can't see it from the moon.

I've read the posts up till now and read many of the sites. I think this is the picture that emerges:

All you see from the moon with the naked eye is the planet.

If you go down lower, at some point you can make out manmade objects but the wall is tough to see because it is basically camouflaged. Browns and greens surrounded by browns and greens.

If you use radar on the other hand a different picture emerges. But a different picture would also emerge if you used infrared.

Neither of which qualify as 'with the naked eye'.

Other man-made artifacts, particularly many city lights, are visible from the moon as well, but they are a conglomeration of many objects seen as one.

Let's see if this works:

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp_big.jpg

Robert

[Sargeant_Kirby]

Alas, The Great Library and the Great Wall actually ARE the wonders of the world, but they are not included in the "original seven".

Wonders by philosophical definition are great human achievements that are not neccessary for survival by the culture that built them. They are accounted as Luxury and the only real reason (if we cut the cr*p) they existed was "to stand the test of time". So, the Eiffel tower is a Wonder, Shakespeares theatre is not. Apollo program IS a wonder, Hoover Dam is not (god bless american propaganda), computers are not a wonder, but Internet is etc.

As you can perceive yourself, the capitalist world is not very fond of wonders as they cost much and they dont make cash .

The greatest improvement I find in CIV 3 that they made the Heroic Epic wonder. It fits very well into the definition of Wonders.


Sargeant Kirby

[kailhun]

Originally posted by Sargeant_Kirby
Wonders by philosophical definition are great human achievements that are not neccessary for survival by the culture that built them.

Really? Is this an accepted definition?
I would have thought a wonder is something that fills people with wonder.
Wonders in Civ3 are manmade (cos you build 'em). Perhaps a new feature for Civ4: natural wonders. Civ's scramble for them like you do resources. Examples could be: the Grand Canyon, Niagara falls, Victoria falls, Uluru (Ayer's Rock) and grand mountains such as the Kilimanjaro.

Robert

[TinCow]

Originally posted by Salvor
Of the original seven wonders, six were Greek (or Hellenistic at least):

The Oracle at Delphi (in modern day Greece)
The Statue of Zeus at Olympus (in modern day Greece)
The Temple of Artemis at Ephesus (rebuilt after a fire in the 4th century BC) (in modern day Turkey)
The Pharos Lighthouse at Alexandria (in modern day Egypt)
The Tomb of Mauselus (I forget exactly where but it's on the Aegean coast of Anatolia not far from Ephesus - in modern day Turkey)
The Colossus of Rhodes (in modern day Greece)

This goes to prove my point about Firaxis miseducating people. Here is a person who is obviously highly intelligent and educated who thinks that the Oracle is one of the original seven wonders. The Oracle isn't a Wonder by anyone's definition except Firaxis. The seventh wonder that Salvor missed was the Hanging Gardens of Babylon which were (surprisingly) Babylonian and not Greek... though I think they might have been destroyed by the Greeks. The Hanging Gardens were a wonder because they were several different levels (4-5 I think) of gardens on this structure at a time when the pump had not been invented. There is not even any evidence of the use of the screw pump at that time in Babylon, which means a very large elevated garden was kept green and blooming through sheer manual labor (carrying the water up in buckets every day).


Salvor is right about pretty much everything else though. Five out of the Seven were originally Greek or the result of Greek cultural influence.

[TinCow]

Originally posted by kailhun


Wonders in Civ3 are manmade (cos you build 'em). Perhaps a new feature for Civ4: natural wonders. Civ's scramble for them like you do resources. Examples could be: the Grand Canyon, Niagara falls, Victoria falls, Uluru (Ayer's Rock) and grand mountains such as the Kilimanjaro.

I think that's a great idea. They could give you benefits kind of like the Landmarks were in SMAC if they are within your territory. There is a lot of disagreement on what the Natural Wonders are... here's some of the main ones (add more if you can think of any):

Mt. Everest (Nepal) --> Highest Mountain in the World
Mt. Fuji (Japan ) --> Highest Mountain in Japan
Mt. Kilimanjaro (Tanzania) --> Highest Mountain in Africa
Angel Falls (South America) --> Highest Waterfall in the World
Iguassu Falls (South America) --> Longest Waterfall in the World (I think)
Niagara Falls (USA/Canada) --> Big Ass Waterfall
Victoria Falls (Africa) --> Highest Waterfall in Africa (I think)
Krakatoa Island (Indonesia) --> Largest Volcanic Eruptions in Human History (I think)
Paricutin Volcano (Mexico) --> Volcano which erupted from a flat cornfield and grew to 1,100 feet in one year (grew bigger later).
Bay of Fundy (Canada) --> Largest Tidal Range in the World
Natural Harbor of Rio de Janeiro --> Perfect harbor with incredible mountains around it.
Great Barrier Reef (Australia) --> Largest Reef/Largest Structure built built by living organisms in the World
Grand Canyon (USA) --> Largest Canyon in the World
Aurora Borealis --> Cool-ass lights

[Salvor]

Tincow, thanks for clearing up my error. I find it kind of embarrassing because I knew that, it was just late at night and I was too lazy to double-check, so I messed up. Ain't hindsight great?

For all you other folks who know everything about what you can see from space, I suggest you get a life. I can't prove what's visible from the moon or not, and neither can you because none of us have ever been there. I posted what I heard in an interview with Eugene Cernan. I figure he knows more about what you can or can't see from the moon than I do or for that matter more than whatever a bunch of adolescent boys want to argue about on an Internet game forum.

Now I remember why I don't spend much time at Apolyton anymore. It's way too negative and vicious an atmosphere for anything approaching civilized discussion.

[cephyn]

Originally posted by Salvor

For all you other folks who know everything about what you can see from space, I suggest you get a life. I can't prove what's visible from the moon or not, and neither can you because none of us have ever been there. I posted what I heard in an interview with Eugene Cernan. I figure he knows more about what you can or can't see from the moon than I do or for that matter more than whatever a bunch of adolescent boys want to argue about on an Internet game forum.

And if my job requires me to know astronomical facts, I should change my career?

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Sargeant_Kirby


Wonders by philosophical definition are great human achievements that are not neccessary for survival by the culture that built them. They are accounted as Luxury and the only real reason (if we cut the cr*p) they existed was "to stand the test of time". So, the Eiffel tower is a Wonder, Shakespeares theatre is not. Apollo program IS a wonder, Hoover Dam is not (god bless american propaganda), computers are not a wonder, but Internet is etc.

Sargeant Kirby

By that definition the Great Lighthouse of Pharos was not a Wonder because it had practical value.

[Sargeant_Kirby]

Well actually yes and no. The great lighthouse was built because the delta of river Nile is swampy and long so navigating ships through it was a must. Note the word "swampy". The great lighthouse sunk (whoops!).
It was a much more intelligent idea to build a city on the coast, and it was built (Memphis).

Also, you are right about thinking about wonders useful, but take a great example: the pyramids only actual value was to keep the tomb raiders out. That is pretty much the value of all other wonders. Do you really think that the great wall kept the Huns and Mongols out of China? Hmm... I think if that would be the case the chinese history would have much less ruling dynasties

Sargeant Kirby

[Salvor]

Actually the Great Wall served quite an important functional purpose. While the Huns and other invaders found ways around it, it did provide a considerable obstacle for them. But its real value was in controlling trade routes. In several ways it was like the world's first giant toll booth.


Cephyn, I wouldn't pretend to be your career counselor, but from what little you seem to know about things here on earth, a job requiring knowledge of astronomical facts seems pretty suited to you. Just try not to contradict yourself so much.

"actually, you can see LOTS of manmade things from space--...like the great wall, cities, long straight highways, harbors, etc."

"Actually YOURE wrong. sorry. You can't even see the Great Wall from that far up....just stuff like runways and things."

"Myth, you can't see the great wall, let alone much else artificial"

Then again, you seem to know so much about myths, maybe you should try your hand at writing fairy-tales. That way people won't question you when you rely on Encyclopedia Britannica as a credible resource for technical data.

[cephyn]

Originally posted by Salvor
Actually the Great Wall served quite an important functional purpose. While the Huns and other invaders found ways around it, it did provide a considerable obstacle for them. But its real value was in controlling trade routes. In several ways it was like the world's first giant toll booth.


Cephyn, I wouldn't pretend to be your career counselor, but from what little you seem to know about things here on earth, a job requiring knowledge of astronomical facts seems pretty suited to you. Just try not to contradict yourself so much.

"actually, you can see LOTS of manmade things from space--...like the great wall, cities, long straight highways, harbors, etc."

"Actually YOURE wrong. sorry. You can't even see the Great Wall from that far up....just stuff like runways and things."

"Myth, you can't see the great wall, let alone much else artificial"

Then again, you seem to know so much about myths, maybe you should try your hand at writing fairy-tales. That way people won't question you when you rely on Encyclopedia Britannica as a credible resource for technical data.

There's a difference between seeing something from LEO -- Low Earth Orbit, like a satellite or the shuttle, and the MOON. Pay attention. Im sorry if me arguing two different points confuses you. Try and keep up. And if you dont find the discussion civilized and too adolescent, quit adding to the problem.

[GeneralTacticus]

The seventh wonder that Salvor missed was the Hanging Gardens of Babylon which were (surprisingly) Babylonian and not Greek... though I think they might have been destroyed by the Greeks.

I don't think it was destroyed by the Greeks, but an interesting fact is that the descriptions we have of the gardens were written by Greeks who had never actually seen them, and we don't know where the Gardens actually were, or if they even really existed.

[kailhun]

The Hanging Gardens

D'you know, if I ever have the money I'm going to study these Hanging Gardens and build them (this is the bit that requires the money). Not an entire city, but a buidling or two or three, maybe four. Using modern technology. That would be nice.

Robert