Okay, I lied, but this is a POSITIVE THREAD

[godinex]

I like the idea, but why in a Huge Map? are too slow, a large map is fine...

[Arrian]

Ship movement for large and huge maps would also have to be increased... 4 moves/turn on Marla's map is brutal... and I was just colonizing Australia from China... I took one look at the Pacific while pondering if I could get a city or two in S.America and laughed. Huge maps are too much for my poor computer anyway, this could work on normal maps too.

Hmm... I like the idea of "ocean" and "rough ocean" to create shipping lanes. Destroyers would be the first ship that was 100% reliable in "rough" waters. Frigates/Galleons/Ironclads would be reasonably safe, but not totally. Privateers would be so-so, Caravels would do poorly, and galleys would be just about guaranteed to sink.

I should have added one thing to my "super galley" comment. I know they don't have the old unsinkable trireme, but the search/explore function I think kinda "knows" where the islands are. That's all. And it probably needs that help.

-Arrian

[Capt Dizle]

I agree 100% that the AI has full map knowledge insofar as terrain. I am not sure about cities and improvements and stuff like that.

[Capt Dizle]

I would like to post an example on the limitations of mods using alpha centauri, which is a game most here have heard of if not played.

It used the SE system giving government choices. One attribute was police rating, the idea being that the higher the rating, the more citizens are kept content. Higher rating allowed more police and if high enough each unit could make two citizens content.

I wanted to improve the factions I was playing against so that the game would be harder. I gave a +5 rating to a test faction to see how that would work. What happened was that the AI could use three police units and quell six citizens but THE AI DID NOT RECOGNIZE THIS and so it was adjusting its specialists as necessary to deal with unhappiness as if the +5 rating did not exist.

You can mod from now to eternity but its all for nought unless the AI can interpret the modifications. That is why I cringe when I hear someone say, shutup if you don't like something just change it in the editor. Those changes don't always work, and I am afraid that Firaxis will use it as too much of a crutch rather than work hard to balance it so that mods are not required to get gameplay in shape.

[Arrian]

Yeah, that's the Achilles Heel of gameplay changes... the AI may ignore them. Such as the new poprush rules. The AI operates as if they are still playing 1.16, and therefore self-destructs when at war, particularly in the industrial age (well, they already did to a certain extent, but now it's clearly noticeable).

If the AI is changed for this type of scenario, might that mess it up for a more standard land expansion? I don't know.

-Arrian

[Capt Dizle]

That is what playtesting is for. And I don't know why Firaxis doesn't put out a patch beta and let us test it for them. Hmm, maybe they did.

[Cyclotron]

Haven't played yet, can't really comment... but I can't resist:

Originally posted by Arrian Hmm... I like the idea of "ocean" and "rough ocean" to create shipping lanes. Destroyers would be the first ship that was 100% reliable in "rough" waters. Frigates/Galleons/Ironclads would be reasonably safe, but not totally.

Actually, the Monitor of ironclad fame sank in a storm not far off the coast. The traditional ironclads were definitly not seafaring vessels... Only the most advanced ironclads could even make sea voyages, and by that time you can almost consider them destroyers.

[rpodos]

First off, GREAT idea. I especially like the shipping lanes concept. It would also be useful to bring caravans back, otherwise ships would be coming back empty more often than not. I think the AI could handle colonization, especially if certain resources were NOT available on the main continent.

Second, if any Firazians are listening, you have GOT to take a look at Empire, one of Sid's early games. It dealt with water and navies even better Civ2 did, including RIVERS.

Good one, jt.

R

[Ethelred]

A nice idea Jimmy. Not a major change to the game but mostly a fairly simple map option. Continents with all civs set to one area of the map.

The other change you proposed to balance ships under those conditions sound OK. The Lighthouse as a small wonder wouldn't realy be a needed change. Not with ships with greater range anyway. The one potential flaw in a single player game is a matter of information. The player has it. The player chose the map option and KNOWS there is a important uninhabited continent. Thats a big advantage for the player. Even bigger than knowing whether the player selected Pangea or Archipelago.

The weather based tiles ideas is not so hot. Freeping Creaturism. To many features and you are no longer playing a civilization game but a navigation and meteorology sim.

AI Super Galleys were also mentioned here by others. I don't think they exist. They may have prior to 1.17f or at least prior to the first patch. They don't exist anymore. Heck I just beat the Greeks to another continent and THEY had the Lighthouse. They seemed to following the Sea tiles quite nicely but they certainly weren't trying long excursions into the ocean. May not have tried any based on the maps I traded for.

I however DID try a couple long excursions based on where I thought a continent might lay. Went to the farthest east point I could in coastal waters and ended my move before I used all my movement. Then struck out east the next turn. Lost my ship just as I spoted the French borders, I could just see the edge of their tiles.

Later when I noticed the Greeks sailing in on the Sea tiles I decided to make another stab at it before they used the Lighthouse to aid them in the same manuever, as I would have survived my first try if I had the Lighthouse. Survived to two turns on the ocean and made contact first.

That is the sort of thing that Jimmy's idea would engender and the AI is not likely to make that sort of decision at present. So a AI tweak would be needed. The AI would have to know as much as the player. Either that or the Super Galley would be needed for the AI again. Tweaks to the different civs styles of seafaring would be good as well. Might make the English a bit more competent if they were more daring at sea then other civs.