I Think It's Time to Say Goodbye

[Roy H Smith]

I hereby surrender.

In what will be my last game, I found myself on an island with the Egyptians and pounded them pretty severely...after hours and hours of combat I finally eliminated them and sent dozens of galleys to a watery grave attempting to reach new lands.

Eventually I succeeded and encountered a civ or two and traded for their contacts and then contact with everyone else. And then, in the same turn I bought and traded for....13 techs! Seriously!

Now I'v got zero for resources and figure maybe I'll get ships and move Cavalry to distant lands. With luck I might actually be able to conquer a few civs before the game ends but then a thought hits me, "Why bother?"

My previous game was nearly ruined by being unable to restore a saved game until the patch. Civ III...first game I EVER had unplayable from the box. I had a 16 player battle and found myself with 7 saltpeter and built factories aplenty by tech selling and have 100+ tanks before the Russians did.

I thank God the new patch allowed me to restore it and then the mighty Russian empire self-destructs under Communism. Gee, time for the next patch?

Three months after I spent $50 and the game STILL isn't finished? But this isn't the game killer for me....it's five factors.

First, it's now just a Builder game, Conquers are out of luck. Culture, Diplomacy, Spaceship victories are Builder-oriented. I finished two Conquer victories which didn't even have a cool victory animation at the end.

Second, it's a low media game. Remember how every new science or structure prompted a cool voice over in SMAC? The Darwin's Voyage movie in Civ II was a work of art! Now building a Wonder have all the visual impact of a text adventure game.

Third, it's attack only after Swordsmen, Knights, Cavalry, Tanks, and Modern Armor. Right after these it's just defense and waiting....Conquerers are bored. I seriously didn't even care about finishing my last game since I didn't think spending 50+ hours for a non-thrilling ending was a good use of my time. The tech tree is useless. Diplomacy is embarrassing. Trade is super exploitable (I've got 1000/gold/turn)

Fourth, the game is very largely luck based. In my second to last game I won fairly easily because
a) the Chinese started on a coast and I started closer inland and I kept them there.
b) The Aztecs moved East instead of west
c) After eliminating the Chinese and Aztecs I wound up with half the Saltpeter on the planet! (But nothing could convince Egypt to trade Iron to me, except three resources, two techs, and 2000 gold...seems fair right?)
d) My neighbor was twice my size! And disintegrated overnight (Karl Marx was an idiot).

Fifth, and this is the killer, Infogrames didn't do their job. Look at the bug lists, the dozens of features people expected (SMAC have plenty of them!), and the absolutely manditory patches needed. They released a game they knew was incomplete to meet Christmas. Sid's name means nothing...he didn't have anything to do with the game...so to put his name on it is a marketing tool/lie (same thing)?

As for the reviews...last poll here I checked 60 loved it, 40 felt screwed, 25 liked it but admitted it have problems. Frankly how this translated to 99% and five star reviews everywhere just astounds me. 85 to 40? Sounds more like 65% to me...guess when you have to pay for a copy you expect more.

So this sad experiance has taught me to never trust Infogrames, ignore anything with Sid's name on it, and never, ever buy a game mag (or even read one) again (I'll just download demos).

I can't "Yin" and slap the game around...after all this time I've discovered I just don't care anymore. You'll find my copy on Ebay this week. Hopefully patch 1.199934123 (coming in 2008) solves everything...I know I won't care. But I would like to say one final thing.

I think it's immoral to knowingly sell something that's incomplete without warning people (and good luck playing it on less than a elite system).

I think it's immoral to put your name on a product and when people complain say you had nothing to do with it. If that's how Sid wants to play it then play leave his name off the next one.

The Critics are entitled to their opinions but I have no respect for any of them now since I doubt any of them finished a game. Civ 3 buys ad space...I guess offending an advertiser would be bad for business.

And for those alt-civvers and modgods I wish you luck. Be sure to code lots of bugs in your efforts so it feels like the real thing.

Thanks to everyone, I've very much enjoyed this site but now it's time to delete it off my Favorites list and find a better use for my time.

[notyoueither]

Sorry to see you go Roy.

The fact that we are playing a beta was fairly obvious from very early on.

Check in again in 6 months or a year. You might like what you find.

Prolly pretty cheap on EBay by then.

Salve

[kailhun]

At least civ III has taught me not to whine at developers to hurry up and release a game.
Just take your time, guys 'n galls. Think the mechanics through, program them well and take your time to test and improve. A good game 12 months late is better than a a piece of crap now.
It also allows for more fun things. I liked the civ2 wonder movies and the advisors. Their advice was useless and they didn't appear much, their were fun: 'I think I'll screw up my entertainment and see what Elvis says this time'.

Robert

[Azrikam]

I've heard a lot of people say that they watched the wonder movies once, then turned them off. Well, I admit that I got bored with the ones in Civ II, but when I play SMAC, I watch the wonder movies almost every game... they are that damn good!

And I think somewhere along the way to making the game more competitive, they forgot about the fun factor. Sure, every now and then I like to crank up the difficulty and fight off all comers, but more often than that, I just want a liesurely game of world domination that's fun to play.

So, to stay on topic, I'll wait for Civ IV, or more likely, keep playing SMAC and Civ II.

[Zachriel]

Apparently, you played for many hours before abandoning the game. For $50, that is about all you should expect. You got your money's worth.

I played SimCity for several hours, then quit. I played the Sims exactly once, before quitting for good. Some people like the Sims. It's not a "rip-off." It's just not my cup of tea. It's not their fault, and I didn't feel a need to go on the Sim forum to vent my "indignation" and "rage." It's just a game!

I enjoy Civ3 immensely, and found it playable right out of the box.

[ACooper]

I was going to type in a response, but it's not worth it.

Goodbye

[kailhun]

Originally posted by Zachriel
It's just a game!

I find the phrase "It's just a game" annoying. It's as bad as saying "It's just business" after you kicked someone's shop into the ground.
Obviously, to the person you're responding to the game was more important than to you. Saying "It's just a game" belittles that person and his/her feelings. Not nice.

Robert

edit: came across more preachy than I meant to. Sorry.

[Spec]

NA NA NA NA, NA NA NA NA, HEY HEY HEY, Goodbye
NA NA NA NA, NA NA NA NA, HEY HEY HEY, Goodbye
NA NA NA NA, NA NA NA NA, HEY HEY HEY, Goodbye


Cya Roy, have fun with whatever you do but try and check back in a few months, you never know!

Spec.

[jackshot]

Originally posted by Zachriel
Apparently, you played for many hours before abandoning the game. For $50, that is about all you should expect. You got your money's worth.

How do you figure?

There is no equation x minutes of play per dollar. Books, movies, and music are mostly irrelevant because they're different animals.

The only value of a specific computer game is in relation to what is being offered by other computer games. Since I must have played 30 or more better games in my life (at least) - at this point I would have to say Civ3 is a bad value or something like it.

Look, good value = playing. Bad value = hanging around forums like ghosts months after release hoping the company will finally kick down a finished deep product.

[godinex]

Originally posted by Zachriel

I played SimCity for several hours, then quit. I played the Sims exactly once, before quitting for good. Some people like the Sims. It's not a "rip-off." It's just not my cup of tea. It's not their fault, and I didn't feel a need to go on the Sim forum to vent my "indignation" and "rage." It's just a game!

I enjoy Civ3 immensely, and found it playable right out of the box.

I played Sims and Sim City and hated it too but I really enjoy CIV III. Have many bugs? Really HAVE... but I wish it will be fixed so keep on...

[Zachriel]

Back to Roy Smith's original post, "I think it's immoral to knowingly sell something that's incomplete without warning people. . . " and "I think it's immoral to put your name on a product and when people complain say you had nothing to do with it."

This is not a moral issue. If you don't like the game anymore, don't play it. You don't have to denigrate the gamemakers, who have made many others happy, just because you don't like it. After all, it is just a game.

Good luck, Roy Smith. Maybe you'll return one day.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by godinex
played Sims and Sim City and hated it too but I really enjoy CIV III. Have many bugs? Really HAVE... but I wish it will be fixed so keep on...

Bugs? Quirks? Design decisions?

There are many things I would change, fix, redesign. But we are dealing with a state-of-the-art and very complex project. So there is going to be growing pains. The game engine is very resilient and will, no doubt, evolve over the next few months or years.

[nationalist]

I like Civ 3. Maybe its because I don't understand many of the problems that people complain about, or I don't care about their issues. I've never experienced a bug. I've always been able to load a saved game. My system is over 2 years old, but runs the game without a problem.

I think that the reason that most people are angry is because its not Civ2. Civ 3 is much more difficult to beat. You can no longer build a horde of howitzers and conquer all of your enemies, and you can't expect that a garrison of 1 howitzer can keep a size 24 city at bay. Most people have been using the same strategies that they tried in Civ 2. When those strategies fail, then they get mad. Other people simply exploit the fact that the game is a computer win easily by exploiting loopholes that weren't intended to be their. That's not playing the game, that's tricking the computer.

Personally, I shut off the Civ 2 wonder movies after seeing them twice, and I rarely consulted the advisors. The diplomacy is far superior to Civ 2. I don't know what you are doing to get 1000 per turn from the computer, but either you are cheating through a loophole or you are an effective diplomat. If you are an effective diplomat, then it means that the diplomacy isn't bad, the game isn't broken, and you should trying playing on a harder difficulty level.

Civ 3 has a lot of innovative ideas, such as culture, nationality, and city flipping that make the game more rewarding than civ 2.
These ideas take some getting used to, but once you understand them they add much to the game. I didn't like Civ 3 at first, but it has grown on me, and now I don't think I'll be playing anymore Civ 2. There are some minor problems, but Firaxis seems to be addressing them. I am personally going to wait and see what happens, and add some constructive criticism where I see fit.

I couldn't care less that you are selling uyour game. It doesn't affect me in the least. Why waste your time posting that kind of thing? People like you and Jimmytirck are simply annoyances. No one cares what you do with your game. I'm still going to play Civ 3. Are you still going to waste your time telling me that you sold your copy all the while posting on a Civ 3 site? Add constructive criticism where you think there needs to be changes. If you think that the game is fundamentally flawed, then stopo giong to Civ 3 sites. I for one am sick of reading your whining, especially from Jimmytrick.

[Capt Dizle]

If you are sick of reading our posts why don't you turn off your computer. No one is forcing you to browse this forum. If you don't like it you can turn off your computer and take it back to the place you bought it.

Get a life already.

[Capt Dizle]

How can you get upset at what you read here? Its just a forum. I don't know what you paid for Apolyton, but I feel like I got my moneys worth. I can't see why people complain about what they read here. Can't you just go away.

This is supposed to be a place where people can come and post in peace. Why do you want to muck things up by being so....critical.

You might want to look for Vel's thread on civility.