Detailed thoughts and ideas on the UN (pretty long)

[dunk]

Interesting ideas.

I think this "Mutual Research" should have some more to it.

If I am in one of these arrangements awith 2 other civs where all 3 of us end up researching the same tech, then this agreement doesn't help much.

In order to maximize it's usefulness, the nations involved should simply pool their "flasks" and then decide which techs to study. The participants in the agreement can each get one vote as to which tech to research next.

By pooling "flasks" the Brain Trust can get a big lead.

[Selkirk]

very cool ideas, but way too complicated.

How about...

Anyone who builds the united nations small wonder is a member.

Each member gets a number of votes based on their per-turn Culture. (or population, or something else which doesn't accumulate.)

The UN enables the following diplomatic options:

Sanctions - With a simple majority vote, all united nations members are required to embargo a specific civ.

Police Action - With a simple majority vote, all member nations are required to form a military alliance against a specific civ.

World Government - With a 2/3 majority vote, a world government is established. This is a diplomatic victory for the sponsoring civ.

A civ which is attacked by another civ can go the the UN and get a favorable reaction for Sanctions or a Police Action against the aggressor.

The use of Nukes would make other civs more likely to vote against you in UN votes.

Friendly relations would make other civs more likely to vote with you in UN votes.

The Civ who builds the UN first gets to vote on proposals first. Civs who vote subsequently are more likely to vote the same way.

[Selkirk]

One other thing.

You could ensure a civ's participation in a UN embargo by negotiating an embargo with the specific civ.

You could ensure a civ's participation in a police action by negotiating a military alliance with the specific civ.

There should also be an option in the trading screen to procure a vote for World government before the vote occurs. ( a 20 turn commitment, perhaps?)

For example I should be able to trade a MPP with one of those tiny island civs for their commitment to vote for me.

I might even be willing to send carriers and battleships to protect them from being eliminated before a vote could occur.

This would make the diplomatic victory something that you had to work at and more satisfying.

[IthacaMike]

Originally posted by Selkirk

World Government - With a 2/3 majority vote, a world government is established. This is a diplomatic victory for the sponsoring civ.

I'd say that the UN's members would have to control 75% of the world's population for this to make sence. What if I was playing OCC and created the UN. Should I be able to establish World Government on my own and thus win the game?

[godinex]

mmm.. very good thread

[lockstep]

Originally posted by korn469
*use lockstep's idea that the number of votes is the square root of population, so that it is better to form a coallition than to have just one big civ bully all of the others

Originally posted by Selkirk
The Civ who builds the UN first gets to vote on proposals first. Civs who vote subsequently are more likely to vote the same way.

IMO, culture should be the main factor to determine the likeliness of other civs to join your vote. Instead, I suggest that the U.N. (besides remaining a great wonder) should add a bonus of 25% or 50% to your votes. (IIRC, SMAC included a 'secret project' with a 50% bonus effect - and SMAC's vote formula wasn't even based on square root of population.)

As for your other suggestions: I'd really like to see all of them included in an X-pack!

[Captain]

A Model for the UN, a game unto itself

The UN works because it has members. The fewer the members, the less effective the UN becomes. Keep that in mind.

(*Remember the League of Nations? Didn't work. why not? Because the biggest most powerful nations weren't in it! Why the hell would they want to abide by a decision they had no input in?)

For instance, if you build the UN wonder, and everyone else has to build the small wonder to get in, why would they bother?
UN decisions only apply to UN countries, except in the case of embargos and military action.

There is no point being in the UN if you are the only member.

So, what to do then? Well, here's my idea (it's practically a game in itself):

1. Where do we start?
You build the UN wonder (cheap build, but high maintenance cost). Immediate effects are you get contact with every other Civ. Your diplomatic reputation goes up one notch.

2. How do you get other members?
You contact other civs and ask if they want to join.
a) Some will want to immediately (such as weaker civs). Some, especially big powerful civs won't see any advantage of limiting themselves to some world government. You may have to cajole with gifts or something. Your diplomatic reputation should affect this.

b) You, as owner of the wonder & first Secretary General, have veto power in the security council. You may have to offer this veto power to other powerful civs to get them to join (just like IRL with GB, FRance, Russia, USA and China). But giving veto power to too many civs will cripple your UN's ability to do anything (just like IRL).

3. What can you do with the UN?

i) Security Council
Like a big MPP against anyone outside the UN, but with more options. Make decisions regarding military action, economic sanctions, and peacekeeping. Ability to spy without penalty. Keeps track of other Civ's military power.
Arms reduction agreements. Nukes reduction agreements.

ii) General Assembly, International Community & Cooperation
Trade Deals help improve relations, esp. luxury swaps.
Civs with similar government types will get friendlier.
Rules of war (no atrocities, no razing, no deliberate targeting of civilians, etc...)
Rules of trade (no extortionary deals. must offer "fair" deals.)

iii) Health, Poverty, & Development
Works to improve the infrastructure of developing nations by cash infusion or sending workers.
Provides necessary techs, money, and resources, to developing nations for peaceful building purposes.
Land mine removal program.

iv) Human Rights Work
Works to return all captured workers or purchased slaves to rightful Civ. (invalid if workers have joined cities).
Works to keep people happy or content. Counts number of unhappy people per Civ and reprimands those Civs. Attempts to help Civ make more happy people.
Encourage representative government (all UN members contribute to "propaganda" costs.)

v) Culture
Designate UNESCO World Heritage Sites. If a Civ accepts a designation, those cities gain a culture bonus but pay maintenance. All UN members receive a smaller culture bonus too.
You can use this to prevent a dominant culture from gaining a cultural victory by boosting the culture of other civs (assuming 20000 cp in one city win is removed).

vi) Emergency Assistance
Works to assist areas damaged by flooding or disease or war. Rebuilds infrastructure. "Rescues" population. (only necessary if they reintroduce natural disasters or have military consequences)

vii) Environmental Protection
Contribute environmental techs to Civs where pollution is rampant.
Contribute funds to help build enviromental infrastructure (recyc, mass transit, etc...).
Global Warming Iniative (similar to Kyoto Protocol)
Fines for polluting members.

4. Who pays for all this stuff? How to come to agreement?
UN members contribute funds according to their joining agreement (20 turns). You, as Secretary General, decide how to spend these funds (separate from your own civs treasury of course).

Additional resolutions ratified by the Assembly include agreements for each member to pay a certain amount in funding.

How to ratify? Each civ gets one seat that they can always vote with on anything. Each Civ gets one additional seat for each Council they sit on (seven are listed above). Each Council has a minimum of 3 members.
(ex. There are 7*3=21 council seats, plus 1 seat per member. So if you have 11 Civs, that's 32 votes. )

As builder of wonder, you are on every Council for the first 20 turns. The other two get voted in the first meeting. The top two Civs with the most votes are in. All council seats get voted on with the initial 1 per civ vote, no council votes can count since they just started. No one can vote for themselves. Allies are necessary.

Diplomacy and reputation affects your ability to acquire a seat, if you want it. Seats cost money to maintain as Civs on those councils are automatically required to pay extra dues. You cannot reject the seat if you don't want it, unless you drop out of the UN.

Changing Council members and the SG happen only once every 20 turns, or whenever a new Civ joins the UN.

AS SG, you can call meetings regularly any time. Every other member can call a meeting only twice in those 20 years.

To ratify an agreement, the Council has to propose an agreement. If it agrees (2/3), then it goes before the Assembly. It needs the same number of votes as the # of member civs, excluding the votes already given by the Council who proposed it.
(ex. with 11 civs, you need 11 votes out of 32 total. But those 11 votes can't be from Civs that are part of the proposing Council)


5. I've heard the cost of being part of the UN, aside from the MPP, what's the benefit if I'm not a developing country that's getting help?

Diplomatic reputation goes way way up.
Culture bonuses.
More happy people.
Better trade deals possible.
Ability to engage in military action without diplomatic penalty.
Ability to engage in military action with allied help, and without worrying about letting the other Civ
Captured cities are held in trusteeship (basically, yours if you're Secretary General but you can't build military units) until peace is arranged, where it switches back to original owner.
Ability to SPY on other Civs through UN inspectors.
Free World Maps.
Ability to interfere with other Civ's political structure, destabilize or to stabilize.
Ability to "make" friends so they don't all gang up on you just because you're powerful.
Reduce pollution.
Avoid environmental catastrophe from dumb AIs.
Prevent AIs from self-imploding by drafting and pop-rushing.
Allows you to play as the Good Guy (possibly enabling humanitarian win.)

6. How do you use the UN to win?

I don't know that part yet. Supreme Leader vote seems a bit counter to the UN's mandate, and could be lame.

Possibilities (achieve all, majority, some, or just one):

a) You have to achieve world peace for 30 turns. No civs can be at war.
b) You have to have no unhappy people in ANY civilization.
c) ALL Civs must have a representative government of some sort.
d) You must have fewer than 1 nuclear weapon for every 4 cities.
e) You must have no polluted squares. Pollution points in each city (or per civ) must be less than some amount.
f) No Civ culture can be more than 1.5x as much as any other Civs.
g) No embargoes can be in effect either.


*Note: I'm not sure how all these can be applied. A few are pretty straightforward, but the others could be too much for an AI to handle. I guess that makes it perfect for MP then

[BillChin]

Good ideas. However, the United Nations comes at the end of the tech tree and the game is almost over. These ideas are better suited for something like Master of Orion 3 where the Galactic senate will be a major power throughout the game. Maybe the thread might be better titled League of Nations or International Council, because the current U. N. wonder has little connection to what is proposed. In my opinion, the changes are near worthless if the U. N. still comes with Fission tech.

A radical change would be to call an International council when all civs get contact with each other, or the beginning of the Industrial Age, or when two-thirds of the world gets settled (MOO2). Maybe call it the League of Nations, and leave out the option of winning the game until the current U. N. wonder gets built. Then the proposed rule changes could add to the game as civs could make changes to obtain membership and council decisions would influence the outcome of the game.

Still, I see all these ideas adding a ton of code, even more testing, and in my opinion not that much added play value. A few more diplomatic options are available. Many more screens and pop ups are needed to enable those. The proposal does not seem to give a player more ways to win the game, or much more choice in play style. There already are options for builder, techer, trader, conqueror. There already is an option for winning the game diplomatically. A player already has the option of seeking allies or going one against the world. The idea of winning through world peace is interesting, but that could be put in without all the other stuff. In games with eight or fewer players, I believe the changes would have a minimal impact on game outcomes. Overall, I see the proposal adding some more texture, but in my opinion that is a lot of code to add some texture.

For these reasons, I would vote no on the proposed changes even if the other radical step of calling a League of Nations very early in the game is also put in. These ideas are decent ones, but I believe they do not make a good fit with the current Civ III game.

[The Thinker]

What I'd really like to see is a UN that would work in a multi-player version. The way the current one would not work there (everyone who could votes for themselves, creating a huge tie) shows best what wrong with the current model: If the AI was playing by the same rules you are they would not vote for you to win.

The UN needs to be restructured, as some have shown here, so nations have a reason to join and can effect things that matter.

What if the most advanced nation had to share tech with the less advanced? What if the richest nation had to help poorer ones? What if joining meant it was harder to take cities by culture by other members? What if you had to trade food to nations that can't seem to grow?

In a multiplayer game I would see the UN as a way for the players in last to band together to slow the player in first. And I see the player in first thinking he might want to join to try and control the group ... or he might just nuke them all.

Rik

[Solver]

Selkirk, I have to disagree, I do not see the ideas being compliciated, it just sounds so.

Captain, very good additions to all that Vel and I've said, but I bet that's a bit too much. We don't want the UN to be too important, a bit less role for it...

Yes, agree now that Fission is too late. Could be mid Industrial Age, somehwere after Scientific Method, maybe? A new tech, like Modern Diplomacy?

[BillChin]

Originally posted by Solver
Yes, agree now that Fission is too late. Could be mid Industrial Age, somehwere after Scientific Method, maybe? A new tech, like Modern Diplomacy?

I suggest several options for first meeting of the League of Nations and enabling the small wonder International Embassy (or whatever name).
1) When one civ has contact with all other civs.
2) When a certain percentage of the map gets settled (66%, 75%, 90%?)
3) When the first civ enters the Industrial Age
3a) When the last civ enters the Industrial Age

Maybe have three or four levels of membership, non-voting member, voting member, security council (veto power), secretary. Again, leave out the option of ending the game with a League vote until Fission tech comes online.

[Solver]

Bill, good post.

1) When one civ has contact with all other civs.

Don't think this is good, as I often happen to contact all the others in the Ancient Age. Too early for the UN, certainly. And, on Pangea, it's more than easy to do that.

2) When a certain percentage of the map gets settled (66%, 75%, 90%?)

Not bad, interesting alternative. Will make all to expand.

3) When the first civ enters the Industrial Age

I think it's better to have a tech in the Industrial Age enabling the UN great wonder.

[Solver]

Firaxis, you listening?

Among the other ideas I've seen here, this might be worth including in the expansion. I want expansion pack to have single player improvements, too, and this seems worth including. Siiid!

[Über KruX]

i strongly dislike your "end conflict" point, mainly because i don't want some stupid "union" of so called "nations" interfering with my ICBMing of whomever i choose. i'd gladly fight the entire UN, but i do not want treaties signed for me.

all other points are accepted by my ministry of... erm... acceptance.

[Panag]

hmmmm , well , maybe we can mail firaxis and who knows ,
......

so many ideas on th UN , well , if it were to be put in , we should have multiple choices so one could decide for himself .


allas , have a good day , my fellow citizen's