Still Don't Like the Combat system

[number6]

And yes I refuse to use the editor to tweek the combat system to my liking. I feel that the game is lacking mostly in its combat model. If I was only changing one slight aspect of the game to fit my playing style that would be one thing, but I feel like I would have to make sweeping changes to quite a few units to make the game play right. For example: I have been playing a new game with the latest patch hoping for some salvation. I am enjoying the game mildly, but I see weird combat results already. I am the Germans and I have calvary as my main offensive unit and the Greeks are using hoplites and archers to counter my superior calvary. I can understand a loss here and there, but I am lossing at least one calvary every time I attack the Greek Hoplite. It seems quite random how the battles are determined. One turn I can't touch the Hoplite. Next turn they are push overs. I don't think the combat system is very fun and you really just have to leave the battles to the luck of the roll. I can't wait to see what happens once I get tanks and my enemies have calvary. No doubt I will see my tanks losing to the inferior calvary units quite often. These are the same calvary that had troubles killing hoplites. Does anyone else think this is a problem? I have seen posts mentioning this very problem before, but I see no mention of this as a future patch fix anywhere.

[Dida]

Yes, this combat system sucks.

[Tarquelne]

A pretty easy change you could make that would help maximize the differences in combat stats is increasing the number of hit points for all unit types. 4 numbers on 1 page in the editor.

OTOH, you could treat the game more like a strategy game, and less like a simulation or a wargame (Try Combat Mission, maybe, or Steel Beasts, or TOAW for that.) As a wargame Civ3 SUCKS. Ditto for simulation. That's not a flaw in the game - it's just part of it's nature. Civ2 was better about the wargame part - but it still sucked as a wargame. (When I say Civ2 was a better wargame it's like saying "Cheese is a better armor than butter.") I think by decreasing the differences between units of different tech levels the designers made a good decision. Not only is a significant tech lead more difficult to achieve in Civ3, but - because of the decreased tech differences among the units - the advantages any tech lead gives you are harder to exploit. I stopped playing Civ2 and SMAC (and Civ1) when they became too easy... it should take me longer to reach that point with Civ3.

[number6]

As a wargame Civ3 SUCKS. Ditto for simulation. That's not a flaw in the game - it's just part of it's nature. Civ2 was better about the wargame part - but it still sucked as a wargame. (When I say Civ2 was a better wargame it's like saying "Cheese is a better armor than butter.")

What you just said backs one of the points I have been trying to make. Civ 3 should have a better wargame experience than Civ 2. Granted the game is not a wargame or even a simulation. At least combat was somewhat consistent in Civ 2. I know there are many factors that go into a battle. Since Civ is a general gaming experience I don't expect an in depth wargame. I do expect the game to improve the combat system. What Firaxis has done is simplified the combat to make the wargame experience even less realistic. Since when is less considered more? I want a logical extension of the previous chapter not a degradation. I can play Risk if I want a game of strict randomness.

[Coracle]

LONG LIVE CIV 2

Originally posted by number6


What you just said backs one of the points I have been trying to make. Civ 3 should have a better wargame experience than Civ 2. Granted the game is not a wargame or even a simulation. At least combat was somewhat consistent in Civ 2. I know there are many factors that go into a battle. Since Civ is a general gaming experience I don't expect an in depth wargame. I do expect the game to improve the combat system. What Firaxis has done is simplified the combat to make the wargame experience even less realistic. Since when is less considered more? I want a logical extension of the previous chapter not a degradation. I can play Risk if I want a game of strict randomness.

I agree. Civ III is a step DOWN from Civ II in so many ways. The moronic combat system is about as realistic as RISK.

I have Edited the units as much as possible but it still stinks.

Unless Firaxis offers a real patch soon I think most of us will have given up on this game by June and gone back to Civ II which I miss.

[kailhun]

Yesterday an elite legionary attacked a swordsmen down to his last point and was defeated. I was upset.
Especially as it f*cked up my attackplan. To take a city you need at least double the number of units defending the city and be one tech up (swordsmen are one up on spearmen; pikemen are one up on swordsmen; knights are one up on pikemen etc.). This defeat meant I had one attacker less than needed.
Does this make the combat system a bad one? I'd say yes. A legionary has a higher attack than the swordsman has a defence. A 'random' combat system means that a couple of points could have been knocked of with a few lucky blows. But that my legionary couldn't get a single blow in? Bad.
Of course, you won't hear me complain if I'm the lucky swordsman.

I often get the feeling that the computer decides who will win the combat round and distributes damage accordingly. For example, you will almost never kill the first defending unit with the first attackig unit unless the tech difference is high. So a spearman will usually take out a tank (kidding ).
Of course this could be due to defence boni and difficulty level, but I'm just too lazy to figure it out. Game on!, after all.

Robert

[player1]

number6, nice you finnaly put to rest Patch thread and moved discussion here.

Now to combat system:

Is it good?
Not really.

What is needed to make it good in standard game?
HEAVY patching and MODing (Firaxis needs to test dose changes, repair bugs, and glitches, and etc...)

Do you think that Firaxis will waste money for that?
NO.

Can you make it more enjoable for yourself?
Yes, increse hps in editor and similar.


Now some discusson:
What makes people go mad?
Cavalry vs Hoplite.
Hoplite is in city = 5.25 defense.
Cavalry has atatck of 6.
What's the problem?
Not combat system, it's units stats and ability that 3def unit fortified can kill 6attack unit.


I dont want to have:
this unit has attack of 12, this has defese of 10. On open first one will ALWAYS kill second one.
I don't want that.
That's Civ2 combat model (not randomness).

Personnaly Firaxis had gone in totaly opposite direction.
Now 4:1 battes are possibile.

For me it's ok to have 2:1 battles possibile, but anything else is just to much.



Only solution:
Face it, Firaxis will not chage combat system. If you would to like this game accept that or MOD it.

[Dienstag]

In my last game, I found myself at war when my best offensive unit was Cavalry, and my enemy's cities were defended by Infantry. I was enduring ruinous losses and inflicting pathetically little damage. (Casualty rates approximately 2.5:1, I guess) Ordinarily, I would not choose to attack in that situation, but it was one of those gang-up type wars, and at stake was Adam Smith's, The Pyramids, Magellen's Expedition, and Hoover Dam, all in the nearest two enemy cities.

Anyway, what with the now reduced chance of withdrawing, the higher defensive rating of Infantry, and the HP usually lost to Artillery, my Cavalry (all veteren and elite) were being massacred. I used massed artillery to reduce size 21 metropolises to size 3 rubbleheaps, and yet the defenders would seldom lose even a hitpoint to my artillery and assaults. At one point an entire 14 HP Cavalry Army was destroyed, having only dealt one HP of damage (I reloaded because if this, then lost that army a few turns later it what I deemed a 'fair' battle'). By the way, neither enemy city was on hills, and I never attacked across a river.

I did get tanks in time to send two of then against the 2nd city I took, but by then the war was winding down... One might say that Infantry are appropriately more powerful than obsolete Cavalry, but (A) I had no other choice and (B) I really think that for about 12-15 turns of intense warfare, my Cav vs Inf battles were statistically improbable in favor of the Inf.

End result: I beelined for Fission and rush-built the UN, and clocked in a cheap diplomatic victory just to put my efforts in the Hall of Fame.

I know this isn't the best example of problems with the combat model, but it's one of the biggest examples of combat ruining my game.

Also, I am sick to death of my elite Ironclad attacking another elite Ironclad, knocking him down to 1 HP in 4 consecutive shots, and then getting hit in the next 5 consecutive rounds. I call this the Rocky Syndrome (tm), and it seems to happen way too often.

[player1]

Originally posted by Dienstag
In my last game, I found myself at war when my best offensive unit was Cavalry, and my enemy's cities were defended by Infantry. I was enduring ruinous losses and inflicting pathetically little damage. (Casualty rates approximately 2.5:1, I guess) Ordinarily, I would not choose to attack in that situation, but it was one of those gang-up type wars, and at stake was Adam Smith's, The Pyramids, Magellen's Expedition, and Hoover Dam, all in the nearest two enemy cities.

Anyway, what with the now reduced chance of withdrawing, the higher defensive rating of Infantry, and the HP usually lost to Artillery, my Cavalry (all veteren and elite) were being massacred. I used massed artillery to reduce size 21 metropolises to size 3 rubbleheaps, and yet the defenders would seldom lose even a hitpoint to my artillery and assaults. At one point an entire 14 HP Cavalry Army was destroyed, having only dealt one HP of damage (I reloaded because if this, then lost that army a few turns later it what I deemed a 'fair' battle'). By the way, neither enemy city was on hills, and I never attacked across a river.

I did get tanks in time to send two of then against the 2nd city I took, but by then the war was winding down... One might say that Infantry are appropriately more powerful than obsolete Cavalry, but (A) I had no other choice and (B) I really think that for about 12-15 turns of intense warfare, my Cav vs Inf battles were statistically improbable in favor of the Inf.

End result: I beelined for Fission and rush-built the UN, and clocked in a cheap diplomatic victory just to put my efforts in the Hall of Fame.

I know this isn't the best example of problems with the combat model, but it's one of the biggest examples of combat ruining my game.

Also, I am sick to death of my elite Ironclad attacking another elite Ironclad, knocking him down to 1 HP in 4 consecutive shots, and then getting hit in the next 5 consecutive rounds. I call this the Rocky Syndrome (tm), and it seems to happen way too often.

Cavalry vs Infantry is very big problem in any game.
These are hardest war for me, especialy if AIs gang aginst me.
Suggestion:
take group of 4-5 Infanrty and pillage his rubber.
Battlefield Meidcine would help.

Or, wait for Tanks.

[ACooper]

Excuse me....isn't Infantry 10 on defense and Cavalry 6 on offense? Since the Infantry were fortified in a city aren't the results you got the way it should work?

Did I miss something?

[AJ Corp. The FAIR]

Originally posted by Tarquelne
...
OTOH, you could treat the game more like a strategy game, and less like a simulation or a wargame (Try Combat Mission, maybe, or Steel Beasts, or TOAW for that.) As a wargame Civ3 SUCKS. Ditto for simulation. That's not a flaw in the game - it's just part of it's nature. Civ2 was better about the wargame part - but it still sucked as a wargame. (When I say Civ2 was a better wargame it's like saying "Cheese is a better armor than butter.") I think by decreasing the differences between units of different tech levels the designers made a good decision. Not only is a significant tech lead more difficult to achieve in Civ3, but - because of the decreased tech differences among the units - the advantages any tech lead gives you are harder to exploit. I stopped playing Civ2 and SMAC (and Civ1) when they became too easy... it should take me longer to reach that point with Civ3.

A significant tech lead is possible on emperor/deity?
For a couple of turns yes, a lead in two or three techs yes, but not for long! The AI will trade and trade between themselves ...Please, explain me ..!

I don't agree with the statement of civ3-warring being worse than civ-2 warring. As a matter of fact, the warring experience has been greatly improved in several ways.
Though I must agree to the criticism of 'suspect' battle outcomes too often and the unreality of the 'Rocky -effect' or something like that mentioned by ... (you first take out all HP's of the adversary except one, and the adversary succeeds in killing YOU by consecutively taking out all of your HP's --> happens a lot)

AJ

[number6]

"Hoplite is in city = 5.25 defense.
Cavalry has atatck of 6.
What's the problem?
Not combat system, it's units stats and ability that 3def unit fortified can kill 6attack unit. "



player1,


I understand that the Hoplite gets an increase when fortified in a city, but where do you get these numbers from? I am just curious where everyone is getting these stats. Is it listed on the official site somewhere. All I saw for the Hoplite on the official site for the A/D/M was 1/3/1. I have attacked hoplites in the open with no cover and they have killed my calvary. Not very often I must admit, but I still find it odd. It also strikes me as odd that the calvary is not rated higher for attack values considering the technology needed to create a calvary unit is much more than to create a hoplite.

Face it, Firaxis will not chage combat system. If you would to like this game accept that or MOD it.

I hope this is not true, but I am starting to think you are right. If this turns out to be true I will tire of this game very soon. I stick by my decision to not use the editor to fix the combat system. The game is half finished as far as I am concerned.

[dunk]

The combat in Civ III reminds me of what it was in Civ I, annoying. Even if I play "Chieftan" level, elite Cavalry attacking regular or even conscript Swordsmen in the open field get beaten enough to annoy me. When I first played Civ II, I felt good not seeing Bombers destroyed by Phalanxes at all. I got annoyed when every ship I had got pummeled with Cruise Missles even though I was "out of sight" for all the AIs units and cities. Civ II introduced the idea of HP, which I loved. The ancient units had 10, the medeval/industrial ones had 20, and the modern ones had 20 or 30. This gave what I'll call an "Age Difference" and greatly reduced the number of musketeers lost to knights chariots and emphasized the importance of technology on the battlefield.

I like the idea of changing the number of hitpoints for units. Last night, I decided to raise the elite units HPs to 6. I will try increasing all of the levels to 2 or maybe even 3 times the base.

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by AJ Corp. The FAIR


A significant tech lead is possible on emperor/deity?
For a couple of turns yes, a lead in two or three techs yes, but not for long! The AI will trade and trade between themselves ...Please, explain me ..!

I regularly get what I consider "significant" tech leads on emp/deity. Long enough to get a head start on a Wonder, long enough to pump out enough military units to matter. I don't often fight an entire war where my enemy is a full generation of military tech behind me, but I do fight and win wars in which I've got, say, Cavalry and my opponent doesn't, or I have LOTS of tanks and my opponent has had time to build only "some" tanks.

I don't agree with the statement of civ3-warring being worse than civ-2 warring.

Me too. I agree with the statement "Civ3 is worse _as a wargame_ than Civ2." And what I mean by "wargame" is games like TOAW or Combat Mission - realistic, trying to be simulators. The unit stats in Civ3 are very unrealistic - obviously (as in "easy to notice") more unrealistic than the unit stats in Civ2. However - I do think that Civ3 is a strategy game, and that, for a strategy game, Civ3 does better with combat than Civ2. I've tweaked it quite a bit because I thought that offense was overpowered - but I did similar things to Civ2's system. What I think is important is that in Civ3 the differences between the tech levels are decreased, so an AI that's behind in tech can still sting, and you have a better chance of surviving if you're behind in tech. (In Civ3 you _can_ survive and even win after being far behind in tech.)

mentioned by ... (you first take out all HP's of the adversary except one, and the adversary succeeds in killing YOU by consecutively taking out all of your HP's --> happens a lot)

As far as I know, the there's no funny-business in the combat resolution, and the outcome of any given "round" of combat is completely unaffected by the results of previous rounds. Note, though, that the combat factors in Civ3 are both smaller (in an absolute sense) than in many games (including Civ2 and SMAC, IIRC), and that the differences in tech don't give realistically-overwhelming advantages. Smaller numbers + smaller differences = more room for random chance to be important. Individual combats really are less predictable than in Civ2 or SMAC.

[Tarquelne]

There's a perspective that I wanted to comment on. Lots of people seem to share it. dunk999's message is an excellent example. The most important parts are quoted below.

Originally posted by dunk999
Even if I play "Chieftan" level, elite Cavalry attacking regular or even conscript Swordsmen in the open field get beaten enough to annoy me.

When I first played Civ II, I felt good not seeing Bombers destroyed by Phalanxes at all.

This gave what I'll call an "Age Difference" and greatly reduced the number of musketeers lost to knights chariots and emphasized the importance of technology on the battlefield.

Realism. The validity of Civ3 as a war-simulator is what's being violated by Cavalry often getting beaten by Iron-Age swordsmen, Greek-style Phalanxes shooting down Bombers, and, in general, technology not being very, very important on the battlefield. And not just, say, the relatively minor differences bettwen discarding sabot ammo and simple steel-jacketed tungsten ammo... but between Napolenoic Cavalry and Roman swordsmen.

I've said it before, but I didn't use caps in the entire statement, so here we go: CIV3 IS A TERRIBLE WARGAME. HORRIBLE. SUCKS. COMPLETELY WITHOUT ANY REDEMING QUALITIES. Execpt one - it works well for a strategy game.

Maybe it's because most civ player's don't play "real" wargames, like TOAW, or the board games where you shuffle zillions of little cardboard pieces around a map for days on end, and so they don't realize just how truely rotten all the civ games have been as wargames.

I certainly think that the combat system in the game should be as realistic as possible, but only within it's mandate - a simple combat system for a highly abstract historically flavored strategy game. Civ3 is supposed to _taste_ like a history-simulator, but it's far too simple and abstract to really be one. I think we don't see lots of complaints about the simply/abstract nature of the non-warfare elements of civ because everyone knows that making that part of the game more realistic would be a HUGE job, and would generate tremendous amounts of detail for the player to wade through. There are games that are better simulators of that sort of thing, but they sacrifice Civ3's scope and accessibility. Warfare, on the other hand, tends to be cool and fun (as long as it's in a game.) It's also more familar to many people. So they want more of it, and it's obvious when the combat system falls down - we all know that Napoleonic cavalry should -realistically - utterly crush a Greek phalanx. The violated expectation makes things less fun. Well, what I'm saying is: Don't expect Civ3 to play like a wargame - expect it to play like a history-flavored strategy game. Look at a unit's stats, not it's name - _thats_ how powerfull the unit is.

I'd love it if a civ game had a full featured wargame tacked onto it. And it'd probably sell better than most wargames.... which is, I'm sure, is still not the market Firaxis was going for. And Civ3's combat is certainly far from perfect... but I really think that most criticisms based on the lack of realism in Civ3's warfare are severely misguided.

Look - there _are_ games with realistic combat. And they tend to sell very poorly compared to Civ3. The public, in voting with it's dollars, has voted to give Civ3 a simple, abstract, and highly unrealstic combat system. Firaxis put in some good "touches" to help give the combat system a more realistic flavor (OK - 1 "touch" - bombardment. No, 2 - retreat), but for the most part they seemed to have more or less ignored realism and have instead tried to give Civ3 a combat system suited to a simple, abstract, unrealistic strategy game. That would be a simple, abstract, unrealsitc combat system.

If you want to _can_ mod the combat system to make it more realistic... But it's just isn't appropriate to criticize Civ3 because the combat system isn't as realistic as it could be.