What needs to be done to make this game great.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS


Well then! Allow me to be the first to contradict, since pretty much everything you said about Civ III was false.

Dan


P.S. my signature may be too much for the common reader to handle; exercise caution. I can't be held responsible if anyone decides to totally flip out and start cutting heads off.

Off topic (start the recorders) Dan I would like to appologize for my rudeness toward you and the other members that have made appearences in here, although I admit I am very upset how Civ3 turned out, there really is only one way to improve the game that we all love so much, and that's to take a deep breath and step back and try, try again. My suggestion is that if we do submit suggestions and ideas from this point on, where will we best be heard?

Thanks for your time Dan.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

* Inconceivable! *

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I once posted my opinion, that I enjoy the game knowing that it's not perfect, and that I have faith that the next patch will fix many problems. Your answer was "fanboy", "slap yourself" and worse. See what I'm talking about? The speed you are collecting enemies is amazing.

Well I admit to say such things, but I don't deny that I had valid reasons to defend myself and my point, which you completely disrupted with your childish remarks. I can understand that you enjoy the game, but when you jump in half-way into my posts and cut me down, thats the least I will do (or say). And if you want the honest truth I could care less about all these strangers on this board -- I don't know anyone personally -- nor do I care. So "the speed you are collecting enemies" really doesn't apply to me. It's a game forum -- we're all here to vent and discuss the game, no one really cares what anyone thinks as long as we can all be heard -- we're not here to be "liked" and if you are, thats a pitty, you better find a life.

I see. Complaints are insignificant ranting. Approvals are intelligent and welcome.

Neither, they're both acceptable when it comes to a free public forum. You come here to express your opinions, your ideas and sometimes "vent" your feelings. What good would a discussion board be if none of those human elements were allowed?

I care less what you think about the game, as long as you leave others the right for their own opinion.

God, here we go. I have never not even once told anyone that they don't have a right to their opinions, nor have I ever tried to change someone's opinions. So you're wrong and obviously misunderstanding me, you attacked me because I was criticising Civ3 -- you expect me not to defend myself? Or perhaps I misunderstood you -- even though I wasn't even talking to you in the first place. But I accept you're opinion, I know you like the game, but I don't want to talk to 'civ3 lovers' I want to discuss and relate with fellow critics, do you honestly believe that you and I are going to solve something here when we have no common ground? Thats what I meant by "slap yourself".

May be because others see in your critizism insignificant ranting? I admit, that both sides in this discussion act not very fair.

No, only people who are opposed to "criticism" view it as such. There are two points of view, obviously you and the others like you enjoy the game - and obviously people like me don't. So there is no such thing as "right" or "wrong" here, just two different points of view. So you're wasting your time arguing with critics we're not going to listen to you -- we know why people enjoy Civ3, it isn't a complete failure -- but for you to assume that you can hijack a post and try to supress someone's disapprovement and criticism with Civ3 -- is ridiculous. Some people like it, and some people hate it -- the two shouldn't be discussing it for the lack of common ground.

I'm content with Firaxis' statement, that they work on a patch. We will see what it brings and what they will be able to improve. I'm sure my 3 main complaints "missing scenario editor", "missing MP mode" and "poor game interface" are at their schedule. So why should I cry everyday "Firaxis, where is the patch?" or "Firaxis, where is your statement what you are doing?" The patch will be right here, when it's ready.

Thats nice, you have come to a higher understanding of yourself, does that mean you're way is the right way? Or that we should all heed you're example and follow you? Not in the real world. I'll choose my own course, and if I wanna hang around the forums and bi+ch and complain over and over -- thats my right -- I bought the game.

Charles.

[Zachriel]

Lighten up everybody. It's just a game! Geez, you'd think the freedom of Western Civilization was at stake, or something.

[ACooper]

Originally posted by Kevin Ar18
I want a modern eara that is actually fun.

• Submarines that can take out ships.
  ..........
• Use pictures or movies of real people and voices.

Then you don't want CIV 3. Most of what you want has never been in a Civ series game. The game is already made and will get a few tweaks. I can garantee they will not do major rewriting of code for items they have already thought through and decided on.




It's like saying I want my Dodge Stratus to have cable TV, a ice cream maker, and laser cannons.

[PGM]

I believe Civ3 is a fantastic game (v. 1.16f).
Although it seems like it was rushed (late game can be boring due to lack of interesting choices, pollution, lack of group movement, ...), the early game is really exciting.
But it can be improved, and here are my suggestions:


Group movement.
Enough said.

Domestic advisor on-screen message: show pictures
When something has been built in a city, the advisor comes in immediately to say so, and to allow you to choose the next production in a list. This list should have pictures too.

Military advisor: view by unit
Allow us to see which units are under production in "view by unit", like in "view by city".

Military advisor: show number of captured/lost workers
Whenever I want to know how many "slaves" I have, I don't want to count them by myself.

Domestic advisor: a (new) maintenance screen (Civ2)
Allow us to see how many of each city improvement we have (similar to the one in Civ2), how much their accumulated maintenance costs, allow us to sell a whole group right there (ex.: If I'd built Hoover Dam, I could now sell the whole lot of Coal Plants with a single click).

Map/City messages: ALWAYS center them.
Sometimes I get messages in the corner of the screen, barely noticeble.

Science Advisor: show remaining goals
In civ2, we were able to choose the next tech to discover based on a specific goal (city improvements / units / Wonders), which we could pick out of the list of remaining goals to achieve.

Cultural advisor: number of turns to culturally grow
Show how many turns are left for each city to grow culturally.

Diplomatic screen: trade units
This would be so interesting, to trade units for money, techs, ...

Hurry Production: default action should always be NO.
I've killed too many citizens with an accidental key press.

Terrain improvement replacement: default action should always be YES.
It's a very common action in the Despotism-Monarchy transition and late game.

Preferences memory
The game forgets some preferences each time we load a game: grid; activated types of treaties in foreign advisor (ex.: war and military alliances only); rolled-out categories in diplomacy screens (ex.: resources, luxuries, maps, gold, ...).

Domestic advisor/city view: allow right-click access to Civilopedia

Units: Patrol mode

Units: Sleep mode

Cruise missiles: target 1-hit point ships
To target a ship that's in the red, I have to keep "B" pressed down, otherwise this doesn't work.

Workers: airlift
I can't understand why I can't airlift a worker.

Armies: pillage
Yes I am aware I can change this in the editor, but anyway...

Summary replay: forward to any date
I refuse to remain watching this for over 5 minutes.

Editor: a good one




PS: BTW, it seems I'm the only one, but I love:

- the combat model
- the corruption level
- the culture flipping model
- the no Wonder Movies model
- the advisors

[Harovan]

To CharlesUFarley, without a quote:

So you blame others for threadjacking, huh? I remember half a dozen "I love the game" threads, where you and your partially exiled buddies jumped in and spreaded their "intelligence" and "wisdom" to the "fanboys" and "chihuahuas". Understand me right, it were not my threads, I did not post there, and I would never praise the game the way they did in these threads (I won't call it stupid but... naive). But the way you jumped in and made trouble, not giving others the same right in your "intelligent conversation", is the reason why I posted my complaint to you, accusing you not to respect other's opinions.

I see it's completely useless to continue this discussion. I have better things to do in my weekend. I told you what I think, I heard your response, and so be it.

[Kevin Ar18]

Originally posted by ACooper


Then you don't want CIV 3. Most of what you want has never been in a Civ series game. The game is already made and will get a few tweaks. I can garantee they will not do major rewriting of code for items they have already thought through and decided on.




It's like saying I want my Dodge Stratus to have cable TV, a ice cream maker, and laser cannons.

Yes, I do. I expect CivIII to be more than just Civ 2 with 2 more features (aka Culture which don't always work too well and resources). Besides this was a thread to really go all out with suggestions no matter how far fetched they were. However, I will say that 9 out of 16 of my suggestions were in Civ 2 in some fashion or another.

[Ironikinit]

I think it's funny that martin would waste his time with a bunch of guesswork about a game he doesn't own or want.

Guys like this deserve only one thing, and that's why there's an ignore feature. Whenever they say something extra dumb somebody will quote it anyway.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Martin,

If I might make a suggestion, you might want to stop "guessing" about the game engine of Civ III. It shares ZERO code with Civ II and at this point probably next to none with SMAC. That famous article refers to a prototype Brian was working on before his departure, and it has NOTHING to do with what Civ III is now.

As for whether civ III uses "8bit 255colors" graphics, the engine is capable of handling 24-bit color, and each unit has its own palette of 255 possible colors, a limitation of the FLC format. So the answer is yes and no.

Also, I never said we "didn't care" about people's HD space, either. Thanks for (finally) quoting me properly, which illustrates exactly what I said: speed is generally more of a concern for players than HD space, which is why savegames are not compressed before saving. I don't really know what this has to do with anything but I can "guess" (pun intended) that you mean it as a jab at Civ.

At any rate, thanks for the entertainment. You definitely know what real ultimate power is.

Dan

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
But is very interesting that Firaxis does not own the Civ licence. The part of the article that I quoted above gave me the hint.

So Dan I can ask again: Firaxis owns the Civ licience.

True or False?

nothing amazing there Martin

civ is older than firaxis the civ license belonged to Microprose. the fact that some people(who later left microprose to start firaxis) worked for Microprose on civ1 and civ2 didnt give them any rights on the civilization name(obviously). so how could firaxis have the civ license?

just fyi, hasbro interactive bought microprose(and the civ license) and later hasbro interactive was bought by infogrames.



regarding the 8bit graphics that you saw, it's the stuff that is used in the civilopedia in other parts of the game. the animations are something completely different

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Well then! Allow me to be the first to contradict, since pretty much everything you said about Civ III was false.

Dan

Such as-?

-Settler/Worker Mania?
-Weak scenario editor?
-No slic like language in Civ3?
-Modding limitations?

I realize that, as a PR guy, your job is to make the best out of a bad game, but I would advise caution in tackling Martin. My impression so far is that he knows a lot more about the Civ series than you do. He might roll over you as a Tank rolls over a Spearman (irl, not CivIII).

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
If I might make a suggestion, you might want to stop "guessing" about the game engine of Civ III. It shares ZERO code with Civ II and at this point probably next to none with SMAC. That famous article refers to a prototype Brian was working on before his departure, and it has NOTHING to do with what Civ III is now.

Thanks for that clarification and finally it does make sense as Firaxis does not own the civ licience.

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
As for whether civ III uses "8bit 255colors" graphics, the engine is capable of handling 24-bit color, and each unit has its own palette of 255 possible colors, a limitation of the FLC format. So the answer is yes and no.

And why than this FLC format and not an own format and release a comfortable editor?

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Also, I never said we "didn't care" about people's HD space, either. Thanks for (finally) quoting me properly, which illustrates exactly what I said: speed is generally more of a concern for players than HD space, which is why savegames are not compressed before saving. I don't really know what this has to do with anything but I can "guess" (pun intended) that you mean it as a jab at Civ.

Savegames are not compressed before saving. But that is something slightly different. But you can also say that people have fast CPUs nowadays.

By the way were can I download a demo of Civ3? So I could really stop guessing.

-Martin

[GePap]

Ideas

Realistic: can be done in the next patch

1. Allow bombardment to kill units in shore, sea, ocean squares. Give modern units the ability to shoot at aircraft (fighters only).
2. Don't allow bombers on carriers, only fighters or jet fighters.
3. Increase anti-corruption powers of courthouses and police stations.
4. Multiple Forbidden Palaces

Realistic: Can be done in an expansion

1. Create well-rounded and powerful editor (with events possible) to allow for scenerio making, and letting persons modify game as they wish.
2. Create more subtle government choices (probably by giving more government choices) to allow for more playing choices.
3. Change rules for city revolts, both for captured cities and unhappy cities in your empire.

Unrealistic: Would need a new game

1.Manpower (making population size matter)
2. Private vs. Public sectors

[CharlesUFarley]

* break through *

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
To CharlesUFarley, without a quote:

So you blame others for threadjacking, huh? I remember half a dozen "I love the game" threads, where you and your partially exiled buddies jumped in and spreaded their "intelligence" and "wisdom" to the "fanboys" and "chihuahuas".

Wrong - I've never posted in "I love the game" threads, that's one of you're most far fetched lies I have ever heard - prove it, show me the quotes and the thread title/date/time. Otherwise I don't agree. And when you say partially exhiled buddies I believe you're referring to "Libertarian". One - he's not my buddy, although I do admire his words and his cause. Second - everything they've stated up to this point I completely agree with and support 100% - I haven't seen one un-proven point by any of my so called "buddies" yet. And even if we did 'hijack' a few threads here and there - you're just as bad now for doing the same thing - only it's worse for you because we at least had something valid to debate, you're just debating for the sake of debating.

Understand me right, it were not my threads, I did not post there, and I would never praise the game the way they did in these threads (I won't call it stupid but... naive). But the way you jumped in and made trouble, not giving others the same right in your "intelligent conversation", is the reason why I posted my complaint to you, accusing you not to respect other's opinions.

You're mistaken if you think I actually care what you think. I'm not here for you, so get over yourself and you're inflated shadow. And this accusation about me causing trouble, you're just reaching. I did no such thing, but I have stated my opinions and views - maybe that's what you classify as "trouble" but I'm sorry it just doesn't cut it. Don't try to pass yourself off as some kind of critic crusader or something, you're just another fine example of someone who can't take criticism or oppositional views - and you guys cling to criticism like moths to the light. I've heard everything you said, and I'll say this again - I don't care what you think, go away or come back when you have something important to offer.

I see it's completely useless to continue this discussion. I have better things to do in my weekend. I told you what I think, I heard your response, and so be it.

After about five posts - you enjoyed every minute of it, and couldn't resist debating with me - like I said you're the moth. But I'm glad you've realized that you're wasting you're time talking to me, because I don't care what you think.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Ironikinit
I think it's funny that martin would waste his time with a bunch of guesswork about a game he doesn't own or want.

Guys like this deserve only one thing, and that's why there's an ignore feature. Whenever they say something extra dumb somebody will quote it anyway.

Yeah but he did have a valid point to make, and AGAIN was his opinion and is still surely entitled to it, and the only thing "DUMB" is some big mouth jumping in at half point to cut his post down. And when you do that you're trying to discredit his opinion (and MarkG if your reading this - this kind of thing should be discouraged) - I can understand if this person insulted you, or debated you in a disrespectful manner -- but he didn't, therefor you don't have the right to cut his posts down, or anyone elses for that matter.

And just because someone gets rid of their civ3 copy doesn't mean they give up their rights as fans, most of these people have been around for over 10 years now! They definately deserve better! In the least a freely expressive post every now and then, when I say "freely" that means no interjection or negative cut downs.

Charles.