Naval combat

[Willem]

Originally posted by Zachriel


Fighter escorts were only available when near the airbase. Bombers were often unescorted when going deep.

Bombers were always unescorted when going deep. Fighters just didn't have the range in order to keep up. They'd fall from the sky from lack of fuel half way to the target point. That's probably why bombers were built with 3 or 4 gun turrets.

[Venger]

Originally posted by Zachriel

Fighter escorts were only available when near the airbase. Bombers were often unescorted when going deep.

Not entirely true. Naval bombers were nearly always accompanied by fighter escort. At the end of 1943 P-51s escorted bombers and provided cover all the way to the target.

Venger

[Willem]

Originally posted by Venger


Not entirely true. Naval bombers were nearly always accompanied by fighter escort. At the end of 1943 P-51s escorted bombers and provided cover all the way to the target.

Venger

That's because they could bring the carriers in closer to the target and shorten the range enough that the fighters could be involved as well. In the case of the bombing of Berlin, which is what I think of when you're talking about "going deep", a fighter would never be able to make it there and back. And I think the game is set up with that sort of scenario in mind as well, so no fighter escort.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Venger
Not entirely true. Naval bombers were nearly always accompanied by fighter escort. At the end of 1943 P-51s escorted bombers and provided cover all the way to the target.

Venger

As the war progressed Allied airbases got closer and closer to the enemy capitals. The Pacific campaign was largely about airbases; Doolittle, on the other hand, had no fighter support.

[Easy Rhino]

yeah it's screwy

It's hard to fit naval warfare into Civ. I mean, the numbers of units involved are usually a lot lower than on the ground (fleets of a few ships instead of thousands of troops), the move a lot faster, the engagements are usually quicker, and "attrition" just doesn't work the same.

- I think the biggest enhancement would be to allow privateers and subs to CHOOSE which unit they attack when they attack a square. They'd go after merchants, probably kill them, and then try to get away before the warships counterattack.

- The Yamato and Musashi were never really able to conduct any effective offensive operations, but they were really difficult to kill. It required dozens of bomb and torpedo hits and hundreds of aircraft. I think extra defense points would be good. If it was Civ2, you could just give it a few million hit points.

(they should also be more expensive than normal battleships)

ER

[Barnacle Bill]

Originally posted by Willem
In the case of the bombing of Berlin, which is what I think of when you're talking about "going deep", a fighter would never be able to make it there and back. And I think the game is set up with that sort of scenario in mind as well, so no fighter escort.

Quite wrong - ever heard of "drop tanks"? Well before D-Day, US fighters were escorting bombers all the way to BErlin from bases in England. Fat Hermann, while languishing in prison during the Nuremburg trials, is reported to have said that he knew the war was lost the first time he looked up and saw a pair of P-51's over Berlin.

[macaskil]

Shore batteries sinking warships

During the German invasion of Norway in 1940, some German ships were sunk by land-based Norwegian guns in Oslo Fjord.

It didn't stop the invasion but weakened the German Navy and may therefore have changed the course of the war.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Barnacle Bill
Quite wrong - ever heard of "drop tanks"? Well before D-Day, US fighters were escorting bombers all the way to BErlin from bases in England. Fat Hermann, while languishing in prison during the Nuremburg trials, is reported to have said that he knew the war was lost the first time he looked up and saw a pair of P-51's over Berlin.

The unescorted missions had disastrous results for the bombers. During a bombing mission over Schweinfurt, Germany on October 14, 1943 to bomb the large ball bearing factories so crucial to the German war effort, the U.S. Eighth Air Force were attacked by a large number of Luftwaffe fighter aircraft. Out of 229 bombers over Scheinfurt, 60 were shot down and 17 more were irreparably damaged. This loss rate was was unacceptable and proved that the allied bombing campaign over Germany could not continue unless the bombers could be accompanied by fighter aircraft.

http://azaz.essortment.com/pmustangair_ryoq.htm

Of course, as the war progressed, advanced, long-range bombers were put in service.

[Zachriel]

Of course, as the war progressed, advanced, long-range fighters were put in service.

[Encomium]

Originally posted by Zachriel


Fighter escorts were only available when near the airbase. Bombers were often unescorted when going deep.

German Me-109's escorted Luftwaffe bombers over England in the Battle of Britain.

American P-51 Mustangs escorted B-17's deep into Germany.

So lack of fighter escort capabilities is a problem in Civ III.

But the inability of bombers in Civ III to sink warships is so stupid it greatly hurts the game,

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Encomium
German Me-109's escorted Luftwaffe bombers over England in the Battle of Britain.
American P-51 Mustangs escorted B-17's deep into Germany.
So lack of fighter escort capabilities is a problem in Civ III.
But the inability of bombers in Civ III to sink warships is so stupid it greatly hurts the game,

Being somewhat repetitious: The Germans had airbases just a few miles away from Britain. Fighter escorts for deep bombing missions in Europe didn't start until the last half of the war. The Pacific campaign was all about securing airbases. Bombers have longer ranges than fighters, so it is just a matter of how far the bomb site is.

[Encomium]

Originally posted by Zachriel


Being somewhat repetitious: The Germans had airbases just a few miles away from Britain. Fighter escorts for deep bombing missions in Europe didn't start until the last half of the war. The Pacific campaign was all about securing airbases. Bombers have longer ranges than fighters, so it is just a matter of how far the bomb site is.

If you want to avoid "repetion", get it right. To say the Luftwaffe had airbases just "a few miles" from Britain is a ridiculous exaggeration.

Bomber escort COULD always occur in WW II. But missions DEEP into Germany had to wait for the Thunderbolt and Mustang.

So, some escort should always be possible.

None of that is nearly as important as the idiocy of bombers not being able to sink warships in Civ III.

[YC4B4U]

In Summary

So it would seem from the discussions that we want the following:

To be able to create our own units -> sacrifice speed for armour or firepower or vice versa.

Ironclads that can't reach ocean (or perhaps even sea) squares.
Or change to HMS Warrior Or Add another Unit based on HMS Warrior.

Yamato as Japanese UU (If it had been constructed at the start of the war I think its ending may have been different).

Aircraft that sink ships (perhaps slow ships and big ships are easier to sink).

Maritime Patrol Aircraft.

Combat Air Patrol for Carriers.

Fighter escort missions.

Increased range to Fighter escort missions as technology improves. (ie drop tanks)

Submarines and Privateers that can pick off targets (eg Transports) but with risk of damage according to escort.

Subs have "torpedo" bombardment.

Privateers that actually Privateer (plunder merchants).

Maritime trade that can be sunk by submarines and Privatees.

Aegis Cruisers that provide fleet air defence (isn't that what they are supposed to do?)

Anti-ship Mines. I suppose that means we need a Minelayer and then a Minesweeper...

Inflight refuelling to increase range of bombing missions.

Sonar buoys.

It won't take them too long to do that will it?

[Deathwalker]

I just want them to fix nval warfare. It sucks, we need more ships and more abilties e.g. ship ships with planes

[notyoueither]

[SIZE=1] e.g. ship ships with planes

Is that kinda like an Aircraft Carrier Carrier?

Salve