POLL: Is the Horseman/Cavalry-Rush too easy?

[Trifna]

The system in itself of regeneration of units is not correct. By that way you're able to attack, but your dead people... regenerate!!!

[David Murray]

Please, not all of us are expert players.

Don't fiddle with every single strategy that is proven to work. The end result will be alienation of the "non-expert" players (like me).

[Velociryx]

I can totally sympathize, David, however, what I'm *hoping* is that by reining in the power of the nearly immortal mounted units, it'll prompt more combined arms forces.....:: crossing fingers::

-=Vel=-

[Dry]

Originally posted by Trifna
The system in itself of regeneration of units is not correct.

You mean the system of free regeneration.
, what about regeneration, but that cost something... I mean cost more than simply time.
What about... it cost you experience level.
You lose as much experience as half (fru? ... frd?) your wounds with a lower limit to conscript.
But then, elites will be very, very, very rare...
... need more thinking...

[Quokka]

I don't think that the regeneration is too out of whack. I take the HP total as a measure of combat effectiveness rather than a measure of alive/dead. Not all of the damage a unit takes in battle is lethal, there are many other possibilites too. For example horses could go lame after hard riding during an attack, Infantry could be shot in the arm, a tank can throw a track. With a little R&R all of these can be fixed pretty easily, which I think is pretty well represented by the skipping a move option. In warfare the actual number of people killed is much smaller than the total wounded and equipment breakage.
If the experience was done better I would agree with the losing of experience levels when a unit was damaged badly. A unit should lose a level whenever it is reduced to 1hp unless it was against a unit it had never fought before or a city. That is a type of experience too, now it knows how to fight against that type of unit. But that would require a massive overhaul of the combet system. As it is Elite is nothing very special at all so keeping it is no great disadvantage, it still has to stop and heal for at least as long or longer than other units to retain the hp advantage.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Atahualpa
That is true! Retreat is too powerful!

Russians took one of my cities with cavalry. I had about 3-4 infantry stationed in and would have surely defeated half his cavalry force if only they would not have retreated. So I have defeated only 2 or 3 that was when my infantry was down to 1 health and the cavalry didnt retreat, but wanted to finish me of.

ata

You should have used your cavalry to destroy his weakened units.

[Arrian]

I think, before changing a big part of the game (retreat), we might want to see if Soren can manage to enduce the AI to build barracks (vet units) and upgrade its units. THEN evaluate the power of mounted units, which may still be too powerful and need balancing. I'm just concerned that the 2-move troops will be hamstrung... and the pendulum will swing too far.

-Arrian

[Spatzimaus]

I had an epiphany.

This whole debate could be solved by one simple feature: an ADD button on the Unit tab of the editor.

You see, the thing that really kills the Knight rush, in my experience, is the Impi. Until Mechanized infantry it's the only mobile defender (Def>Att and Move>1) in the game. Attacking the Zulus with any Knight-level unit is just asking for trouble, since you can't retreat.

So, here's what I'd like to see; have all land units fall into one of the following categories.
Partisans: moderate in all categories, cheap and no resource (mentioned in other threads)
Defensive Infantry: high defense, low move (Spearman, Pikeman, Musketman, Rifleman, Infantry, MechInfantry)
Skirmishers: good defense, high move (Chariot (Impi would replace), then a few new units along the way.)
Attacking Infantry: good attack, moderate defense, low move (Swordsman, (insert a new one here), Marine)
Fire Support: high attack, low defense, low move (Archers, Longbowmen, Sniper?)
Cavalry: good attack, moderate defense, high move (Horsemen, Knight, Cavalry, Tank, Modern Armor)

See, the problem with the cavalry rush is twofold. One, there are no other good slow attacking units, since Swordsmen don't upgrade to anything and archer-types are too fragile. Second, there aren't enough defensive units that can counter retreat.
Adding more units in these two categories would help tremendously. The Partisans thing is just something I'd also add if I had the chance.

[Arrian]

Yes, it might just be that simple. A defender with 2 moves and a 4-6 defense would end the Cavalry rush pretty effectively - but only if the AI built them (and upgraded to them). Also... what middle ages/industrial "skirmisher" would you create? From a gameplay standpoint, your idea might solve the problem, although I would worry about the power of such a unit used to pillage behind enemy lines.

However, it just makes more sense, to me, to lower the % chance of retreat. Historically (yes, though I care more about balance and gameplay, I have a history degree and therefore do have bouts of "damnit, that just doesn't jive with history") pikemen did awful things to a mounted charge. Pikemen should be the defender in the middle ages, but knights shouldn't be able to run away every time. Cav should be put on the same tech level as riflemen, not musketmen, and both musketmen & riflemen should be slightly cheaper to build.

I like a lot of the ideas to re-balance the units... but I think that messing around with the units is premature - UNLESS there is no intention on the part of Firaxis to patch the AI's upgrade problems & failure to build barracks in enough cities. Soren, I hope you see the problem that I see and are trying to fix it. Once the AI is using the proper units, we can properly balance them.

-Arrian

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by Zachriel


You should have used your cavalry to destroy his weakened units.

That was my only city on this continent and he took my city in one turn
no chance to destroy his cav
besides he had railroads so he could perfectly bring his wounded cav to his cities where I had no chance of defeating them

ata

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Atahualpa
That was my only city on this continent and he took my city in one turn
no chance to destroy his cav
besides he had railroads so he could perfectly bring his wounded cav to his cities where I had no chance of defeating them
ata

If he took your city in one turn, then the retreat function had no effect on the outcome. ?

[Quokka]

Is there anyway with the existing editor to give the gun bearing troops ZOC(simulated range)? What I am thinking is if there is a way to have the contested square count as the start square for the retreat then any unit with ZOC would have a chance to kill the retreating unit. Then sometimes they would be able to retreat and sometimes they would get shot trying. Fairer to both that way.
Also had an idea for a swordsman upgrade. Turn them into Palace Guards in the Industrial Age. When Infantry become available (Replacable Parts) swordsmen really lose all chance of being effective assault troops. Keep the same stats but get a new uniform and abilities. They now make one person happy and increase revenues for the city they are in. They become Ceremonial type troops, think Swiss guards at the Vatican or Buckingham Palace Guards or Scots Pipers. Events such as Changing of the guards, Colour Parties and Bands for Parades and Tattoos generate extra happiness and Tourism(tax). Rather than straight tax % increase have them generate 1 gold per turn instead of costing 1. Have the gold feed directly into the treasury so that its not lost to the host cities corruption.

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by Zachriel

If he took your city in one turn, then the retreat function had no effect on the outcome. ?

sure it had
just think:
First Cav comes gets _destroyed_ by my infantry
Second Cav comes gets _destroyed_
....
Finally my city taken THOUGH he suffered heavy casaulties

but it was like this:
First Cav came and retreated
Second Cav came and retreated
...
Finally my city taken AND virtually no casaulties on his side!!!


I think that makes a difference.

ata

[WesW]

Does anyone know for sure what the mounted flag does? I thought it was what activated the retreat option.

A good solution would be a flag which give a 50% bonus against mounted units, which civ 2 had, and a flag which gives a 50% penalty when attacking cities, which Ctp2 had but did not work (the Ctp series had so many great concepts, too bad that more didn't work).

A Medpack II concept which I am proud of is that healing units now costs production, based upon the initial cost of the unit. Thus, no more "regeneration."

[Dry]

Originally posted by WesW
Does anyone know for sure what the mounted flag does?

Not sure, but I think it is only for MP cost/move allowance in some terrain.
Mouted units spend 3 MP in jungles, units on foot only 1 or 2. Maybe someone who already played with the samurai could tell us.
Mounted units are allowed to move into mountain squares, chariots not.