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  • 2 radical ideas for Civ4

    Here are two new game concepts that i think would make for a better civ game, Civ4:

    Manpower: the civ line horribly undervalues the importance of population. The mongols are an important civ because they conquered many but they themselves never built much if anything- all their people were busy either fighting or herding- no time, or place really, to create large agricultural cities. I think that there should be a value called manpower, based on pop. To do ANYTHING, you would need a certain amount of manpower- to farm, to build, to run buildings. Thus, buildings not only need the money to be run, but the people to staff them. War would become more difficult since creating units would mean lowering the available manpower for other things- since your men are away at war. This concept could certainly be made more complex (diff. between skilled and unskilled labor, so forth) if anyone wanted- but the basic notion I think is sound and would make for a much deeper gaming experience.

    Private property. In civ, all economic activity is centrally controlled all the time, from the beginning fo history to the end. Even a liberal democracy has a centralized economy with the gamer in control of every dime not lost to horribly overdone corruption. I say that there should be private economy- this would help make a bigger diff between govs. All economic activity begins private but over time the government gains the ability to control a greater and greater proportion of it- a modern government can, if it chooses, bring all economic production under its control- kings in medeival europe could not. The Tax rate would be just that, the amount of the total economy the gov uses for itself- the rest in the hands of private individuals. This would also finally make administrative techs key- since better bureacrcy would allow you to draw more money from the people, thus you can do more. Like manpower, this concept can be further refined, but again, i think it would make for a much deeper gaming experience.
    If you don't like reality, change it! me
    "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
    "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
    "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

  • #2
    I like your ideas.

    They would add just a little bit more complexity, but make for many more varied strategies, which would immensely help the replay value of the game.

    Any other thoughts out there?
    To each his own...

    Carpe Diem

    Comment


    • #3
      Your thoughts are quite ingenious, but as they are they add only complexity and potential difficulty.

      The concept of private wealth is the one I like the most - I see it as the same sort of effect as a Democratic govt - the more property your citizens own, the happy they are (they are a somewhat shallow materialistic lot, but aren't we all? ). But, like a Democracy, the more control you exert over this property, the unhappier people are. You could even have a war weariness modifier - ppl get unhappy due to govt seizure of certain assets, eg forced change of factory production to war machines, as in the US in WWII.

      In order to counter this sort of effect and make absolute Govt ownership less favourable, you need bonuses due to increased private property - more tax due to sales of goods and services, and better science (private learning speeds institutional learning and sometimes circumvents it - eg Einstein).

      There will be other, less insular ideas too, but these are the most natural to the Civ series.
      Consul.

      Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi All:

        Couldn't resist sticking my nose into this discussion. I think both GePap's points are really important. So important I started a game project to do them and some other things in a more complex way. In Clash of Civilizations Demo 6 building the ancient military units requires 5k population a shot. The economy has separate private and public sectors, that uses population directly as GePop suggests. It has different growth rates and evolution of traditional and market economies. You can get a glimmer of how using Real population will function from the demo.

        When it comes out in Demo 7, the Government model will implement different levels of private property, social policies (wealth redistribution) and much more. I'm coding that up now.

        It sounds like you all are looking for a somewhat deeper game, and we've Got It. And in the bargain less required Micromanagement! But what we do need are ideas, and new people to tell us whether things are going in the right direction, or if a particular aspect Sucks... So if you're interested, please check out the Demo 6 Comments and Bug Reports thread to learn about demo 6, and hopefully download it, and give us some feedback!

        The web page link is in my sig. below. The web page has detailed writeups on how we're handing a lot of issues in the game. Whether you like Clash or not, keep pushing for breakthrough game ideas. The genre isn't evolving Nearly fast enough for my tastes! That's why I had to go ahead and get a team together so we could "roll our own".

        -Mark
        Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
        A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
        Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

        Comment


        • #5
          Plug...plug...plug.

          But, you've got my interest.
          Consul.

          Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!

          Comment


          • #6
            Wait a minute. Let me get this straight. Are you saying that you are building a TBS game from the ground up using real-time input from players?

            [...reserves ecstatic shouts of joy until all becomes clear...]
            "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

            Comment


            • #7
              Yes, he is! I highly recommend you to help out. You have lots of good input. Get over there.
              I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

              "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

              Comment


              • #8
                I these are good ideas, but for now we need to get them to fix Civ 3
                I have walked since the dawn of time and were ever I walk, death is sure to follow. As surely as night follows day.

                Comment


                • #9
                  My God.

                  Yin and Lib - do you guys never sleep?
                  Consul.

                  Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Not nearly enough. I actually have a hard time sleeping ... thus the number of computer games I play in a year. I'm pretty sure I'll die young ... not young enough for Firaxis, of course.
                    I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

                    "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You prob'ly spend nights running around causing mayhem in the sweet dreams of Firaxis employees... --> -->
                      Consul.

                      Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by yin26
                        Yes, he is! I highly recommend you to help out. You have lots of good input. Get over there.
                        On my way! Woohoo!
                        "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
                          The concept of private wealth is the one I like the most - I see it as the same sort of effect as a Democratic govt - the more property your citizens own, the happy they are (they are a somewhat shallow materialistic lot, but aren't we all? ). But, like a Democracy, the more control you exert over this property, the unhappier people are. You could even have a war weariness modifier - ppl get unhappy due to govt seizure of certain assets, eg forced change of factory production to war machines, as in the US in WWII.
                          Actually, a war that the population believes in can be very for a democracy's economy. WWII really helped build up the US and there were very few people that protested against the war economy and what came with it. Vietnam on the other hand wasnt very popular in the population and that is a good example when you talk about war weariness in CivIII.

                          Maybe this concept should include some other factors, like who you are fighting? If the enemy civ has razed many cities and started many wars, then your people might not get any war weariness at all. Offcourse, this has to be balanced so that democracy doesnt become too powerfull suddenly.
                          Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world. - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Good point...

                            But perhaps you have a new type of trade allocation - propaganda! THIS propaganda is to convince your citizenry of the importance of this particular military action - and in govs like Democracy, if you put in a decent amount of it, you can actually make the ppl HAPPY you have units in other Civ's territory, have battles with them etc. In other words, this allocation causes the reverse of Civ3's war weariness!

                            Yes, if ppl believe it is for the good of their country (and there has been enough effort spent on giving them a sense of patriotism), they will put up with almost anything.
                            Consul.

                            Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Expatriate
                              Actually, a war that the population believes in can be very for a democracy's economy. (snip)
                              Maybe this concept should include some other factors, like who you are fighting? If the enemy civ has razed many cities and started many wars, then your people might not get any war weariness at all. Offcourse, this has to be balanced so that democracy doesnt become too powerfull suddenly.
                              Agree completely. The context for a war should have a much bigger contribution to determining any war weariness. Frankly democracies can be ruthless SOBs as much as anyone else during war. Usually its after the war that the bigger difference with other forms of government takes place. And mostly things like the Marshall Plan are done in self-interest to try and "spawn" other democracies. It Works, Mate -- at least so far. Things like ideological differences between two powers can also be important (can you say "Cold War"). Just a bit more depth to the civ war weariness model could help a lot IMO.
                              Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
                              A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
                              Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

                              Comment

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