Analyzing a Firaxis statement

[MBloomIII]

Questions to Ponder

Originally posted by Heliodorus
Jbrains or some such, by extension of statement, inferred that I'm a 13-year old kid suffering from some sort of psychological or intellectual agitation... Just to correct the official record, I'm 33.

So you are a 33 year old kid who suffers from some sort of psychological or intellectual agitation.


(Couldn't resist)



Is it possible that there exists somewhere in Colorado a person who is able to clearly and objectively state his/her beliefs without resorting to petty and belittling name-calling? Could this person, perhaps, venture into on-line gaming forums under the name Heliodorus?

In this hypothetical, is it not also possible that the aforementioned Heliodorus, perhaps without even knowing it, summed up my own feelings concerning modern corporate philosophy in the following quote?

The corporate culture simply can't accept putting itself in a vulnerable position. They cannot stop themselves - it's a sad pathology - made worse by the fact that we accept and encourage it institutionally.

Would this lead one to believe that a conversation concerning short-term profit objective and maximizing shareholder wealth be not only enlightening, but entertaing?


Could the following quote be summed up with: "The battles are so fierce because the stakes are so small"?

Speaking of Libertarian himself and his curious sojourning for information - my apathy betrays me. I admire his persistence greatly. Still, I find myself resisting the urge to tell him to move on, for this is among "the little things" about which I wish we wouldn't get so upset.

[MBloomIII]

Re: It's not Firaxis, it's the culture

Originally posted by Heliodorus
Sometimes, while I'm reading and writing these posts from my little cubicle at work, I think that my powers of perception and expression are completely wasted in this job...

[corporate lackey mode on]
Well Mr. Heliodorus, unless you are being paid to analyze the statements made on Apolyton, I would suggest that your time on the job is being wasted.
[corporate lackey mode off]

[lawyer mode on]
Sometimes?!?
Sometimes?!?
Could you possibly be a little more specific? Speaking of specificity, before you offer your thoughts to us would it be too much trouble to explain how and why your thoughts would possibly have any relevance?
Excuse me, I'm not finished.
Thank you.
Lastly, you mentioned your job. Please tell me how your job involves the "reading" and "writing" of "posts" as it relates to your so-called "powers of perception".
[lawyer mode off]

[co-worker mode]
Dude! My computer's down, do you mind if I check my fantasy scores?

Hey, get me some coffee while your not doing nothing.

[co-worker mode off]

[Libertarian]

My guess is that they placed a higher priority on scenario and customization issues, and that is what they are working on. If that is the case, it is entirely possible that they have not put enough design-thought in to late-game tedium issues to know what, if anything, is feasible to do. Or for that matter, they may not even know if they will get buy-off for a 3rd patch at all.

Then that would be useful information.

Were they to tell us their intentions, we could then decide what is important to us and move on. As it stands, we're waiting here at the train station to find out God-knows-when that the train is going God-knows-where. Only the most phlegmatic temperament could adapt to such a nebulous state of affairs.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Libertarian
As it stands, we're waiting here at the train station to find out God-knows-when that the train is going God-knows-where. Only the most phlegmatic temperament could adapt to such a nebulous state of affairs.

you are still free to visit apolyton only once per day to check the news

you can even susbcribe to the newsletter and one day you'll get a "new civ3 patch is here!" announcement from us

[Grumbold]

Re: It's not Firaxis, it's the culture

Originally posted by Heliodorus
Issue: Firaxis promised things during the design and programming stage of Civ3 that they did not deliver with release.

Analysis: Firaxis certainly knew that MP and a few other major and minor items were not going to be able to be included in Civ3 before release (say, at least 3-6 weeks for the CD burn/market delivery cycle). They had the option to announce during that time that MP and those features were NOT present in the released version, but they CHOSE not to. This is a lie of omission. They let stand a false perception because to dispel it COULD mean that sales of Civ3 would suffer.

This is incorrect, or to put it in your terms, you are lying. Go back to the forum posts 1 month pre-release and you will see that the commonest theme is ranting about the lack of multiplayer. Why? Because Firaxis had put out a detailed list of game features on their site and then come to the game community forums to confirm that unfortunately not making mention of multiplayer was not a mistake.

Philosophical point 1: This is dishonest. This is in my moral universe the equivalent of lying. It is tantamount to SAYING they would include MP for the game (or whatever feature you wanted) with NO intention of ever implementing it. But then, in my moral universe I think telling kids that santa claus is real is morally objectionable...

Shame on you for being dishonest and standing at street corners in december yelling Santa is a fraud then....

Philosophical point 2: There's nothing you can do about it EXCEPT call them on it, and most importantly learn from it by NOT ACCEPTING it, and using caution in believing anything anyone ever tells you about something they profit from. Caveat Emptor is over 2,000 years friggin old!

Thank you Helio. I shall automatically assume all your future posts are lies, half-truths, deliberate fabrications or rubbish unless they are proved otherwise

[Libertarian]

you are still free to visit apolyton only once per day to check the news

Thanks, Mark. I can take a hint. Unfortunately, wherever one goes there one is.

Thank you Helio. I shall automatically assume all your future posts are lies, half-truths, deliberate fabrications or rubbish unless they are proved otherwise [with a smiley, no less]

I quite imagine that proof of Helio's veracity would have little or no effect on your automatic assumptions.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Thanks, Mark. I can take a hint. Unfortunately, wherever one goes there one is.

it's not a hint, it's a suggestion.
in the end, in real life and apolyton, whatever you do is always your choice

[Heliodorus]

Re: Re: It's not Firaxis, it's the culture

Originally posted by Grumbold


This is incorrect, or to put it in your terms, you are lying. Go back to the forum posts 1 month pre-release and you will see that the commonest theme is ranting about the lack of multiplayer. Why? Because Firaxis had put out a detailed list of game features on their site and then come to the game community forums to confirm that unfortunately not making mention of multiplayer was not a mistake.

Shame on you for being dishonest and standing at street corners in december yelling Santa is a fraud then....

Thank you Helio. I shall automatically assume all your future posts are lies, half-truths, deliberate fabrications or rubbish unless they are proved otherwise

Well, Grumbold - from quote 1 - I have this to say: I didn't even start reading about Civ3 until it was released. My example is thusly fraudulent and I apologize. However, you get my point generally, and that is good enough for me.

From quote 2 - I drop money in the Salvation Army boxes, I give to Toys for Tots, and I let the little kiddies have their illusions. I only disaprove of the latter slightly - I go with the culture on that one ultimately.

From quote 3 - obviously I am thus a fraud as evidenced in my second response, which is at least somewhat supported by my first that I didn't know precisely what I was talking about. I am a tale told by an idiot, then, filled with sound and of fury, signifying nothing.

At least I finally made Chieftain...
To quote the lyrics from Tool,
"He had a lot to say
He had a lot of nothing to say
We'll miss him"

And JBrains, I simply must disagree with your assertion that the use of so-called 19th-century prose words belies weak logic. That is mere bumpkiss.

If you didn't look up the words you didn't know (and I'm assuming you didn't know some, which may be innacurate, but I for one, didn't know all of them), you should have. You might find that there are much stronger ways to state something with the forgotten words in our language.

You can call a politician a lying scoundrel who loves party above all, or you can call him an oleaginous aparatchik** - which is FAR more concise and rich with meaning.

Two-dollar words, where used appropriately, do much to solidify reasoning. And I am suspicious of your objection to them.

** At the site www.andrewsullivan.com, Mr. Sullivan described Lannie Gwinere (former lawyer to the Clinton administration) as "the most oleaginous apparatchik of the Clinton admin"
I was busy thinking to myself whether this Sullivan guy wrote with a thesaurus in his hand, then I looked up the two words, and realized that they were the most accurate, poignant descriptions possibly available, and that Mr. Sullivan had a far better command of the language than I - and I started reading him more and keeping a vocabulary list for my own edification. Of course, that was a run-on sentence, and I don't know why you're still reading my fraudulent posts.

[Zachriel]

Re: Re: Re: It's not Firaxis, it's the culture

Originally posted by Heliodorus
** At the site www.andrewsullivan.com, Mr. Sullivan described Lannie Gwinere (former lawyer to the Clinton administration) as "the most oleaginous apparatchik of the Clinton admin"

The words were well-chosen to convey the intended meaning.

That does not necessarily make them true. Aspersion are easy to cast. The current administration is busy emptying the treasury for their rich buddies at Enron, but that is off-topic certainly, as is the Clinton administration cut.

[Venger]

Re: Re: Re: Re: It's not Firaxis, it's the culture

Originally posted by Zachriel
That does not necessarily make them true.

His statement was to illustrate the use of language, the subject matter was ancillary. If I were use "the ball is blue" as an illustrative example, there may or may not be a ball, and it may or may not be blue. That's not the point, and you know it.

Aspersion are easy to cast. The current administration is busy emptying the treasury for their rich buddies at Enron,

Emptying the treasury for Enron? Can you forward a copy of the Consititution your country uses, because the one my country uses clearly indicates that Treasury expenditures are authorized by the Legislative branch of the federal government. And even so, I don't recall anything in the latest budget authorized by the US Legislature which would qualify as emptying it, much less to the benefit of Enron.

but that is off-topic certainly, as is the Clinton administration cut.

Listen candyass, nobody in here took a shot at Clinton or his administration. You've now apparently migrated from being a Firaxis apologist to a Clinton one. Bravo. But Clinton is old news. Nobody cares. These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along.

Venger

[Zachriel]

I apologize to everybody for straying off topic.

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by Libertarian
I quite imagine that proof of Helio's veracity would have little or no effect on your automatic assumptions.

Only when it applies to what he writes, and its nice to see that he's been honest enough to acknowledge he didnt actually know the pre-release situation. It certainly won't affect you.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by jbrians
The elements and bodies of the compaints are not a minority. I did not suggest that Firaxis should ignore them. In fact, they should heed them by working and releasing a patch. Spending time working is a good idea. Spending time in forums catering to every spoiled kid who wants a personal response would be time wasted on the minority. The point you were aiming at was moot, but it wasn't mine.

Problem is, the majority of the fan community have been sending them feedback since October, and most of us haven't been acknowledged. The least they could do is post public updates keeping the mod/fan community informed of their progress so as to silence the mobs, if they simply ignore the growing volume of mail due to lack of time, it will only pile up on their doorstep. My suggestion (about 10 posts to them directly now) was that they post public updates either on here, or on the Civilization III homesite. To suggest that they have "nothing" to report is bogus, only an idiot would believe that Firaxis has told it's fan-community everything it has to tell. And again you make loud suggestive remarks slandering the maturity and stature of this community solely because they have issues and loud vocals with this product. I suggest that you stop joining the "kids" by acting like a "kid" yourself and move on, or simply stop reading the posts you find offensive. Otherwise make your point, are you calling me a kid?

They're not going to be afraid to post/read here, nor are they going to go home and cry about it. They might, however, decide that it is a waste of their time to wade through it all.

Thats exactly what they've done. They've ignored this whole community because they won't deal with the "zoo" of complaints (thier words ofcoarse). The only "zoo" is the building that Firaxis is located in, especially if they think they can burn us with an over-hyped game full of bugs and lacking a large list of features, and then ignore us. I'm really interested in the future of their company now more than I ever was, as a fan of 8 years now I'm curious to see how they'll pull out of this one. And the only way I can see them doing so is by giving the fans what they want.

It is the nature of software development. Even Microsoft only talks about features in the most general of terms until they are actually done. It is just too easy for something to fall-out at a late hour. Firaxis has said that they are working on improving the editor, but not specifically how. They have also said that they are interested in late-game tedium. That is the most information that is reasonable to release assuming that they are indeed working on an editor patch and are pretty much focused on that at the moment.

I completely agree with you. That is the nature of the beast, but does that mean we have to like it? Or more importantly be silent and restrained? Thats the other side of the coin now isn't it? They have the ability to be "silent" and release vague responses, but the consumers will always pound on the door when they aren't happy with the product. That's just the way it is I guess. Even though I'm one of the "critics" I do believe they will improve the game but at what cost!? At least 10% of the 4 million fans will be gone after all of this, and who knows how many more are going to follow. But hey, thats the nature of business.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by MarkG
you are still free to visit apolyton only once per day to check the news

you can even susbcribe to the newsletter and one day you'll get a "new civ3 patch is here!" announcement from us

cute. I think we've been doing that since October Mark. I'm now at the "giving up" point and ready to blow up the train station.

Charles.

[jbrians]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
The least they could do is post public updates keeping the mod/fan community informed of their progress so as to silence the mobs

I might agree with you here, I'm not sure. It would be good of them to post on their site something along the lines of:
"The Civ3 team is currently hard at work on the second patch. Among other things, this patch will greatly increase the value of the editor. Further details will be released with the patch, hopefully within the next X time or so." (Where X is a very pessimistic estimation)

However, a week or two later, there is no reason to believe they would have anything more to update us on unless the thing was actually done.
-Brian