Analyzing a Firaxis statement

[Zachriel]

I move we rename this thread, "Over analyzing a Firaxis statement"

[Libertarian]

Actually, you should rename it "Overanalyzing Lib". Analysis of the Firaxis statement was rather swiftly hijacked.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Charles, Venger, et al: Don't forget meeting of secret clique tonight at eighteen hundred.

got it.

[jbrians]

Originally posted by Libertarian


The hell point would be to salvage some customers. We already know that they MIGHT do anything (or nothing) under the sun. Do you believe the zipped-lip tactic has quieted expectations?

It would not have that effect. It would simply quiet the voices of a few people for a short time at the expense of possibly causing a greater uproar later on. The way to "salvage" some customers is to RELEASE a patch, not talk about it.

Mendacious. Satisfaction with Dan's response does not imply satisfaction with the status quo.

It implied that you understood and accepted this specific issue, on which you have now started 4 threads.

And what is your ultimate goal, oh Chihuahua? To get as much personal attention as possible from me and feel like you are a part of the debating process because you cannot muster rhetorical skills on your own merit?

Displaying a large vocabulary and re-phrasing the same complaint ad infinitum does not constitute a debate.

[Libertarian]

Why the rather anal fixation on my vocabulary? Does the sempiternal mention of it somehow lend credence to your points?

As to the four threads, I'm flummoxed by your canonical schemes. I would image that, by your recknoning, I have opened a thread on nothing else — including the one I recently resurrected which was a rather vehement attack on whiners.

[ACooper]

I guess what we are saying Libertarian is that we have all heard you, Firaxis has heard you. They did post a response, even if you didn't like it.


BTW, I don't mind the big words, I've even had to look a few up.

[Libertarian]

[...sigh...]

I suppose you're right, Shaggy. For whatever reason, I keep feeling the urge to demand from Nurse Ratchet the return of my cigarettes.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by jbrians

It would not have that effect. It would simply quiet the voices of a few people for a short time at the expense of possibly causing a greater uproar later on. The way to "salvage" some customers is to RELEASE a patch, not talk about it.

It implied that you understood and accepted this specific issue, on which you have now started 4 threads.


Displaying a large vocabulary and re-phrasing the same complaint ad infinitum does not constitute a debate.

And it will keep getting re-hashed until we feel compromised for being misled and done so at a cost. In other words if people want to complain, let them. What business is it of yours? Is someone forcing your face up against the monitor telling you to read all this. Find something better to do.

Keep the voice Lib, stay the course. I back you.

Charles.

[jbrians]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
And let me explain to you about software development since a few members of my family are currently employed with some large Canadian software firms. Nothing is impossible to code, only complicated. How they spend their time is just as important as how the product turns out. In other words Firaxis (in my opinion) not only rushed Civilization III, but they avoided some 'tough' areas during development to avoid burning more time. Hence why the product was rushed and eventually turned out to be a disapointment to the mod community. And the value of keeping the mod-community well informed plays hand in hand with consumer reviews and a posative flow of "word-to-mouth" hidden market advertising.

Firaxis itself is probably not to blame here. The rush came from the publisher I'm sure. I agree that keeping in touch with the mod community is a good idea. Under the current circumstances though, they have collected enough feedback and now just need to go implement what they can. "What they can" will change from day to day until it's done (features can be cut during the testing phase). Telling the mod community what they're working on serves no purpose unless the release is planned for over a month away or so.

Not to mention how tasteless it is to defend in in-animate object like a game.

You mistake Firaxis for an inanimate object. In truth, it is a relatively small number of real people with real thoughts and feelings.

You tell these people to stop complaining because it won't gain result, and here you are "complaining about complainers"

Indeed. My ire is too easily aroused. I guess I want the designers to feel like this is a good and useful place to read, and the more repititions of Lib's threads there are the less likely they will. I get the impression that developers that have been in the industry for some length of time "learn" that there is no point in listening to or participating in on-line communities because all of your data is poluted by vocal minorities, and that is unfortunate.

You honestly believe that phycological babble about people wanting attention? I'm putting my money on the fact that the game wasn't what they wanted, and they're pissed off as a result. It's only human to act so when disapointed

In this specific case, yes. I believe Lib can't help himself, and this ceased really being about the game a long time ago. In general there are some people who are pissed off and that's fine; the game isn't perfect. I think the game is fun; an incremental improvement on Civ2, and I think it will get better with the (hopefully) 2 more forthcoming patches.

Apologize? What is this a dorm room? They're a game company you fool. Little bits of data and text has absolutely no effect on them personally, and it never will. And when one person's opinion begins to sway the development process world-wide, then and only then will an apology or formality be required.

Non-sense. As I said before, a game company is a not-as-large-as-you-think number of REAL people. It only takes 2 or 3 prolific poluters to make a couple of specific people from a specific company decide that a community is too time-consuming to wade through.

That being said, the modern culture has created a very impressive array of tools with which to communicate a wide variety of misleading information. In very fact, the use of the terms "spin," "public relations," and "damage control" belies the cultural acceptance of lying and concealing real information

I agree. I still believe though, that in this specific case Firaxis is behaving correctly by not saying anything. Better that than saying half-truths or meaningless fluff. There is no meaningful information to be distributed at this time.

[jbrians]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Why the rather anal fixation on my vocabulary? Does the sempiternal mention of it somehow lend credence to your points?

I didn't realize I had mentioned it before. People ought to state things in the simplest precise terms possible. Obfuscating (now I'm doing it ) your arguments with 18th century prose fools a few into thinking they are very convincing, but in fact belies muddled thinking.

As to the four threads, I'm flummoxed by your canonical schemes. I would image that, by your recknoning, I have opened a thread on nothing else — including the one I recently resurrected which was a rather vehement attack on whiners.

Honestly, I haven't seen you post on any other topic. In all fairness I haven't looked that hard, though.

[Libertarian]

Keep the voice Lib, stay the course. I back you.

Your words of affirmation are nourishment for a weary soul. Thank you, Charles.

-----

There is no meaningful information to be distributed at this time.

It would be (or would have been) meaningful to me to know what issues of late-game tedium are being considered. People are beginning to remove the game from their computers, and some are placing their copies on e-bay. Having invested a lot of emotional energy in the game as we anticipated its release, many of us would have hung in there had we known for a certainty that what we thought mattered.

Surely, you can understand that we're not asking Firaxis to give us everything we want, but merely to acknowledge that what we want has merit. And if they cannot aleviate the game's tedium, they need to offer us advice on how we might mitigate it. And finally, if they don't listen and they won't talk, why should we hang on?

If they don't know what they can do (up to a point), then I can accept that. But the not knowing looks more and more like not caring. And that I cannot accept. There has been enough time.

They cannot still "not know" whether group movement is feasible after two months. That's not possible. They do know one way or the other.

In other words, they do have useful information that they choose to withhold, owing to a bizarre and rigid policy of pushing away consumers and ignoring them.

[yin26]

Inside a Firaxis head (a few feet beneath sand):

"Gee, so many whiners and people who hold a grudge out there. Why is it that they keep growing in numbers whenever we release a game?

Hmmm, just bad luck, I guess. Ignore them and focus on the 6 (wait, another dropped) ... 5 guys who love us. Carry on."

[jbrians]

Originally posted by Libertarian

It would be (or would have been) meaningful to me to know what issues of late-game tedium are being considered.
They cannot still "not know" whether group movement is feasible after two months. That's not possible. They do know one way or the other.

My guess is that they placed a higher priority on scenario and customization issues, and that is what they are working on. If that is the case, it is entirely possible that they have not put enough design-thought in to late-game tedium issues to know what, if anything, is feasible to do. Or for that matter, they may not even know if they will get buy-off for a 3rd patch at all.

On a somewhat related note:
I too have trouble finishing games. Towards the end of the industrial age the prospect of starting a new game gets more and more tempting. However, I've had this problem with every such game I have played. Civ2, Moo2, MOM, and other games; it's the nature of the beast. That doesn't mean that it can't get better, or that Civ3 doesn't suffer from it more than other games, but for me it doesn't ruin Civ3 or strike me as a totally unexpected aspect of the game.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by jbrians
Firaxis itself is probably not to blame here. The rush came from the publisher I'm sure. I agree that keeping in touch with the mod community is a good idea. Under the current circumstances though, they have collected enough feedback and now just need to go implement what they can. "What they can" will change from day to day until it's done (features can be cut during the testing phase). Telling the mod community what they're working on serves no purpose unless the release is planned for over a month away or so.

As usual I'm going to have to disagree with you. Did the publisher design the game? Did the publisher threaten Firaxis at gunpoint forcing them to sign the contract with the poor time table? I think not. As far as game-tedium goes and overall design they are completely to blame for any disapointments. The publisher is only to blame for a sh_tty contract and poor business ethics. But if you sign it, you agree with it. And in this case the terms that Infogrames stated were acceptable to Firaxis. I'm not saying that the game is horrible, and that they completely ruined it. All I'm stating is that any disapointments or bugs are a direct result of the "design". Also you speak as if you're on the design team and you have direct knowledge as to what they are working on. I think not. No one really knows what they are working on, all we can know for certain is that they are "considering" everything. But how do we know that they've heard everything? More importantly how do you know? Fact is, no one really knows. Unfortunetly the only thing that speaks right now is their silence. And silence can be easily and greatly misunderstood, from where I am standing the "silence" is a form of hiding or deception in some manner. So all we can really do is sit back and speculate until they prove us wrong. But again it is bad business policy to ignore your customers, regardless of time tables and complications.

You mistake Firaxis for an inanimate object. In truth, it is a relatively small number of real people with real thoughts and feelings.

I didn't say they weren't. But any adult human being with secure self-esteem and maturity is obviously un-affected by simple things like emails from complete strangers all over the world regardless of it's content. When was the last time you read a hateful email from someone and called the police? In real life it's assumed that the general populace of users that point and click are entering into a fantasy world where nothing can hurt them, unless you call a computer virus life threatening. However, I'm not excusing the concept of "etiquette" or common courtesy I'm just simply saying that Firaxis is a proffesional business enviroment and to suggest that they perposely hide from computer game forums due to someone "being rude" or abusive is complete nonsense. Fact is they don't care. If they see abusive mail, they'll just ignore it.

Indeed. My ire is too easily aroused. I guess I want the designers to feel like this is a good and useful place to read, and the more repititions of Lib's threads there are the less likely they will. I get the impression that developers that have been in the industry for some length of time "learn" that there is no point in listening to or participating in on-line communities because all of your data is poluted by vocal minorities, and that is unfortunate.

I too would like the designer to participate more in these forums, however I'm not going to bow down or kiss a game company's ass because they hold the source code. Fact is whether you like your customer or not you are obligated to listen, or you sacrifice sales which in long term ruins the future reputation of the company in question. And I too agree that there is an element of hate-mail and criticism that is detering Firaxians from becoming more involved with thier communities. However to suggest that the elements and bodies of complaints are a minoritiy is a foolish assumption based on your biased opinion to defend your mute point, I say mute because your crusade to rid the forums of complaints and criticism is only attracting the people that love to argue with you. We're wasting our time *****ing at Firaxis, but your wasting even more time asking us to stop its like the blind leading the blind. Instead of becoming part of the problem, try becoming part of the solution I assume that is what your crusade is all about, but I have yet to see the light to reveal evidence of that.

In this specific case, yes. I believe Lib can't help himself, and this ceased really being about the game a long time ago. In general there are some people who are pissed off and that's fine; the game isn't perfect. I think the game is fun; an incremental improvement on Civ2, and I think it will get better with the (hopefully) 2 more forthcoming patches.

I agree it has gone past the issues regarding the game itself, now its about the glory of respect and acknowledgement. I mean we aren't talking about a bunch of people spending half their day playing games and the other half in forums. We are talking about people with families, people who work and have careers in the everyday and more than likely complicated fastlane. And these people have very few precious moments (hours) to spend. And where have they spent it? On a game. So than it becomes more than a game product it becomes a fixation, an addiction. Some people alienate thier families to play this game. And I can't speak for everyone, but I can say that I've spent the better portion of 8 years involved with the active game community as a fan and devoted player. I must have spent over $500 in gaming products from Sid Meier's legacy alone. Now you can sit back and continue to criticise people for having opinions or you can come face to face with one certainty and that is this we've earned our seats!

Non-sense. As I said before, a game company is a not-as-large-as-you-think number of REAL people. It only takes 2 or 3 prolific poluters to make a couple of specific people from a specific company decide that a community is too time-consuming to wade through.

Not likely. Give Firaxis some credit, they are proffesionals who have serious minds with serious responsabilities. At the most they don't have time for the forums, to suggest that they "fear" the forums due to 2-3 people complaining out of the millions of consumers is rediculous. They don't care, ask them yourself. But don't expect an answer.

I agree. I still believe though, that in this specific case Firaxis is behaving correctly by not saying anything. Better that than saying half-truths or meaningless fluff. There is no meaningful information to be distributed at this time.

Again you presume that there are only two colors in the world, black and white. Why is it say something "concrete" or say "nothing" at all? Those are the conclusions of a typical black and white close minded individual. Again you talk like you know something we do not. "There is no meaningful information to be distributed at this time." How do you know this? Lets go out on a limb here, even if there isn't any information to give (which I assure you there is!) what possible harm would it do to admit that? That's presuming that they have large egos and inflated pride that they need to defend ofcoarse. If we use your way of looking at this, I picture a bunch of game developers sitting around drinking beer and playing caps during business hours. But if we think realisticly here, they are more than likely pounding away at the keyboard 8 - 10 hours a day everyday and in turn making great progress with the game issues and newer products. So if they're making progress that means that have information to share to with us, don't they?

Charles.

[jbrians]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
However to suggest that the elements and bodies of complaints are a minoritiy is a foolish assumption based on your biased opinion to defend your mute point

The elements and bodies of the compaints are not a minority. I did not suggest that Firaxis should ignore them. In fact, they should heed them by working and releasing a patch. Spending time working is a good idea. Spending time in forums catering to every spoiled kid who wants a personal response would be time wasted on the minority. The point you were aiming at was moot, but it wasn't mine.

Not likely. Give Firaxis some credit, they are proffesionals who have serious minds with serious responsabilities. At the most they don't have time for the forums, to suggest that they "fear" the forums due to 2-3 people complaining out of the millions of consumers is rediculous

They're not going to be afraid to post/read here, nor are they going to go home and cry about it. They might, however, decide that it is a waste of their time to wade through it all.

Why is it say something "concrete" or say "nothing" at all?

It is the nature of software development. Even Microsoft only talks about features in the most general of terms until they are actually done. It is just too easy for something to fall-out at a late hour. Firaxis has said that they are working on improving the editor, but not specifically how. They have also said that they are interested in late-game tedium. That is the most information that is reasonable to release assuming that they are indeed working on an editor patch and are pretty much focused on that at the moment.

Those are the conclusions of a typical black and white close minded individual.

An sad and unnecessary swipe in an otherwise even-handed post.