Jeffrey Morris: Dan Magaha said to ask you these two questions

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Libertarian


Physician, heal thyself.

Pot: Houston come in.
Houtson: Houston here, go ahead Pot.
Pot: The kettle is black. I repeat, the kettle is black.

(You are looking in a mirror when posting this correct? )

[Libertarian]

Heliodorus,

You're a gentleperson and a scholar. May your great intellect find itself nestled in a peaceful heliosynclasm.

-----

Ozysomethingorother,

Could you start from the beginning? I was paying no attention.

[maxpublic]

ozzy for president

Ozymandous, you should really think about a career in politics. Your skill at distorting and misrepresenting virtually every word ever uttered by those you don't agree with, along with your obvious and eager willingness to bend over and take it in the ass from those you deem to be a higher authority, makes you the perfect sort of bottom-feeding scum-sucker that Americans like to elect into office.

Yes, do think it over. Perhaps while erecting your next platoon of strawmen?

Max

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Max Webster


I don't really care what Lib posts or how often. He caught my attention this time because I too dislike the unit movement issues in this game.

Does anyone like having to move massie stacks of units? Nope, although few people posted as much or in such an attitude as Libertarian did. Hence all the other posts knocking himn on it. Oh, and it wasn't just me doing so, lol..

I have the option/choice like others to not read anybodys posts or threads. I might disagree with somebody but I believe everybody can post what they want or how often they want as long as they stay within forum rules.

Yep, and forum rules also talk about personal attacks, profanity, etc. Disagreeing with someone is also allowed, no?

Free speech my man, positive or negative it should all be out in the open, it is your choice whether you want to read it, disagree with it, whatever.

Sorry, but "free speech" doesn't give you the right to be rude to other people. That's an excuse, nothing more.

But to tell people not to express themselves is silly, however much you don't like what they are saying.

I agree. I never said he shouldn't post, but that he should post in a different manner (yes I know this applies to me as well at times ).

[jbrians]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Ozymandous (sic):

Lib's fantasy response from Jeff.

The ideal answer would have acknowledged the intelligence, humanity, and integrity of those who posed the question. Something like this:

I just want to say on behalf of Firaxis that we greatly appreciate these kinds of suggestions for improving gameplay. We can't think of everything, and so we depend on good people, like the ones in this community, to help us with great ideas like this one. I wish I could give you a definitive answer, but at this point, we're currently reviewing exactly the issue you raise. We agree that it would contribute greatly to gameplay, and if we can find a way to implement it, we'll let you know. Thanks, Lib.

...
If they can't code this, then they need to go program databases or something.

(edited for spelling)

Give me (and them) a break. The tone of Jeff's response was well matched (in fact quite a bit more graciouse) to the tone of your original post. The tone of your fantasy post is completely un-warrented considering
a) your idea was not a great one that no-one had yet mentioned
b) your post was rude

On a seperate note, I can guarantee you that the issue is not whether or not the firaxis devs can code this up, but whether their managers think it is worth the number of dev and test man-hours it will cost. Most likely Dev has given its estimate to management, and management is deliberating as to whether or not this feature is more important than scenario/editor features they would have to cut to do it, or whether or not releasing a second patch is cost-effective at all.
-Brian

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Barchan


*sigh* I guess in your rush to chide me for expressing my opinion, you overlooked my point entirely.

lol, rush? Nah, no rush, people not reading fully and only believing what they want will be around for a long time, no rush to answer that.

It's not about Libertarian, it's about Jeff and Firaxis. Regardless of Libertarian's actions or posts, Jeff's response was a poor statement to the public on behalf of his firm. His comment wasn't for Lib's personal consumption, nor was it "off-mike". It was thrown out in the open, and it was, essentially, "we'll say something when we feel like it."

Umm, no. YOUR view of it was that. My view was that they have taken the considerations under view, and when they know more, i.e. if they can or cannot add it, they will let us know. There is a differnce. Maybe not to you, but to myself and others, we saw the difference.

I understand the concerns of Firaxis and how they don't want to feed the rumor mill with hints of possible features that may never be. And, yes, it's my opinion that the response was untactful, if not inappropriate. If Jeff were fed up with him for posting the same thing thrice, he could have said “As I’ve said previously, we don’t have any information on the possibility of these features at this time.”

lol, and THEN he would have been blasted for being arrogant "look, he said he told us this or that previously, who is he to talk to me like that???" or worse. lol, do you read these forums as well, or just pop in occasionally?

You don’t just tell people seeking information “when we have something concrete to say about them, we’ll tell you.” Read that carefully, pal.

I have read it, it says when they know more, they will officially let us know. Until then they will NOT comment on what may or may not be patched (you DID read Jeff's post on that in the patch thread, right?)

Leave out the word “concrete”.

Why would I leave that word out when it WAS included in his response, probably for that exact reason. You can try to spin it anyway you want but until the word CONCRETE is OFFICIALLY removed the statement still stands how HE said it, not how YOU want it to read.

See the difference?

Now what’s it say?

It still says what Jeff said it did because I, unlike you, didn't presume to put MY OPINION on what Jeff meant, rather on what he DID say.

It says “don’t call us, we’ll call you,” and that’s a pretty poor approach to customer relations, no matter what the product is.

Well, if he had left out the word "concrete" then I'd probably agree with you. Since he didn't, regardles of how you WANT it to be gone, I won't agree. It's that simple.

You didn’t by any chance work for Ford in the eighties did you?
*talking on phone*
“Fer cryin’ out loud, you dimwit! For the third time now, when we find concrete evidence that rear-end collisions cause the Pinto to burst into flames, we’ll call you!
*slams phone down*
“Jeeze, all these burn victims seem to want personal attention to their cases. What whiners!”

Poor analogy. A better one would be you dropping a suggestion in a drop box at a resturant and the manager saying "thanks, we read each one."

The bottom line is that if the public asks questions, you ought to respond either professionally, tactfully and honestly or not at all.

Hmm, you mean like how the government always tells the public everything they want to know? How companies always tell everything they are doing? Umm, yeahsureright, that always happens..

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Max Webster


There are alot of great games out there that don't require a computer to play them. Its when you bring computers, programmers etc into the loop is where the trouble could start. Computers and programmers have come a long way and have done some amazing things but sometimes the complexity of making a PC game can ruin a possibly great game. All I was saying its too bad programming a group unit system into the game could be extremely difficult as stated by others. Adding this feature would improve this game would it not, therefore making it better or maybe even great IMHO.

Yes and no. Sometimes great games, like Avalon Hill for example, are made into PC games and are horribly, horribly butchered. Other times something like Baldugrs Gate 2 can bring a non-PC type game and make it a lot of fun as well.

I don't think it's the problem with coding a game that is the problem but how the game designers develop the game. Yep, it's too bad that all games aren't made with hooks all over the place to easily add and remove stuff, but if that were the case games would likely take 2-3 times as long to complete.

Oh well. Maybe it will be perfect one day, but as long as humans code it it'll never be 100% perfect.

[Ozymandous]

Re: ozzy for president

Originally posted by maxpublic
Ozymandous, you should really think about a career in politics. Your skill at distorting and misrepresenting virtually every word ever uttered by those you don't agree with, along with your obvious and eager willingness to bend over and take it in the ass from those you deem to be a higher authority, makes you the perfect sort of bottom-feeding scum-sucker that Americans like to elect into office.

Yes, do think it over. Perhaps while erecting your next platoon of strawmen?

lol, amusing.

Are you always so quick to label and attack everyone who doesn't agree with you? Or are you naturally rude and arrogant as to think you're the center of the world and saw no problem with the TONE of Libertarian's posts?

I didn't distort anything and generally don't like politicians either (for whatever thats woirth). However I will sya what I think and stand by it. Heck, I'll even admit when I AM wrong without blaming the other person. That's more than some folks here do.

I assume you hate the game and want everything now as well, with little to no real world experience beyond your own "instant gratification" impulses?

[Libertarian]

Brian,

I think you're right. There's no doubt in my mind that ethical duty toward the gaming community is no consideration. That was made clear enough.

As to rudeness, I've already apologized for mine. I like making unacknowledged apologies to people whose salaries I help pay. There's something surreal about it. And after all, I am a Dali fan.

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Libertarian

Ozysomethingorother,

Could you start from the beginning? I was paying no attention.

Yes I know, that much was obvious...

Oh, and I fully explained the origin of my "handle". I see you still have not risen above the childish attempts to invalidate what I say because of my name. lol, if I had labelled myself "Bubba" would you call me a back-wood hick as well instead of refuting my points? lol...

Still waiting on a logical answer, not an attack, not something trying to dismiss what I say, not a response of "well you're wrong so I am not going to bother." lol, if I AM that wrong it should be easy to prove me so, correct? Every debate calss I ever entered, attemded, etc, proved that simple concept.

[Ozymandous]

By the way...

Thanks everyone for the fun today.

Was amusing to "fend" (*yawn*) off all the logical points where everyone proved me wrong. As for me, it's 5 PM and time to go home..

See yah tommorrow.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Ozymandous
So, tell me, in all your years of coding, have you EVER directly answered or even acknowledged all of the end-users who might employ your software and told each and every one of them what you stated above??

Regardless of mass numbers of customers, or large companies that purchase your product(s) you still, either by contract or personal notification, or even email owe your clients/customers information as they request it. If you do not, you lose business. How many times do I have to explain that to you? Or are you just being ignorant to the matter?

Have you EVER, in all your whole twenty years of coding commercial software had an application that was used by more than a thousand or so people? Have you EVER in all your years of producing "commercial" software even went back and added FREE features to your products after it shipped? Or did you charge folks for the "add-on" features, even if some folks thought they should have been in there to begin with?

Have you ever been so stubborn that you miss the entire point? Business' OWE client information, especially prior to the contract. We're not talking about a "business deal" we're talking about a *GAME* and we pay for this game! So your point is mute. If you design software, regardless of your "thousands" of fans, you owe PR and Technical Support, otherwise (DUH) your customers become angry. And again, there are other ways to respond to the public and answer everyone's issues without actually having to talk to them one on one, are you aware of that? Or are you again being ignorant?

My guess is that most of these are no. Even if you did reply to the limited (guessing) people who give feed-back on the product you don't put out FREE improvements. Trust me, I have been USING commercial software for at least 10 years and have YET to see any major improvements in said software without paying. As for your comment of "we're so sorry we didn't answer each and every *****, whine or complaint, how may we spend time doing that instead of actually WORKING on these features" spew, well, I have said it before and I'll say it again.

I'd RATHER have the prgrammers and sesigners working on trying to add the stuff we suggest than to have then here stroking a few people's reproductive organs just because said people want to feel good about themselves.

You've gotta be joking. "Stroking our egos" you really think thats what this big war is about? Maybe your that privilaged little yuppy who *actually* get's replies from Firaxis, or perhaps you're just easy to satisfy. But we've obviously been mistreated, why the !@# else would we be doing this, use your head! And are you trying to tell me that they simply "don't have time to answer the public" due to production issues? Your joking right? How long does it take you to go through all these forums, a month? I can go through Poly, Fanatics and Yahoo/Hotmail answering possibly hundreds of emails in a few hours! So don't tell me they dont have the time or the man-power to distribute for PR. Thats a crock. I have said it before and I'll say it again.. they can comb the forums (takes about 2 hours, MAYBE) and then they can respond in ONE post. Get it yet? If you don't I'll just keep explaining it until you do. Otherwise give me a GOOD reason why they can't do that!

You've gotten your response from Jeff, he knows what people want, what the hell more do you want, other than having your "ego" stroked???

The only thing being stroked in these forums are the hairy palms from all the exagerating little Firaxis-Lawyers in this forum. Jeff, DID NOT answer Lib's question! Sure, he responded, but he didn't disclose any information! Why? Top-Secret Game? Was he in the middle of sex while writing the email? C'mon, give me a good reason why he couldn't have said something like "I'm sorry, we haven't started any of those features, be we fully intend on design them!" huh? Or how about this one "I'm sorry, we've been discussing the features, but we don't yet have a plan to begin the design/code portion" well? You know what, don't bother, there is nothing you could say to convince me, Lib, or even Yin or the others. Because you're point is mute and makes no sense!

Charles.

[XPav]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley


Oh, you're a bright one. I thought I addressed this issue with you in another thread, I guess you though that by moving somewhere else that I wouldn't notice you eh?

Check the dates on my posts buddy. I didn't move, I was responding to EVERY SINGLE THREAD Lib started.

Would you ever talk to your customers that way, not a chance. If you don't give customers the information about the product, they simply become un-interested and go to another store. Lets talk facts, not crap. It seems like so many people are struggling with the fact that WE ARE THE CUSTOMERS! Think about this!

Yes, I have talked to my customers in this way. I have given out the exact same answer than was given out to Firaxis. "I know you want that, but I don't know if we'll do it or not." My customer didn't seem to mind. Then again, my customers are in the same business as me, and understand me when I tell them the truth.

Fan: Are you currently working on the stacked movement feature?
Firaxis: I dont have any information, therefor I wont say anything.

What !@#$'n kind of answer is that? If I treated customers that way, I would get fired faster than I can say "Civ3 sucks".

Its the truth. They know you want it, they haven't decided on whether or not they are going to put it in, and so they have nothing to tell you. However, they're being hounded for an answer, so they give the only one they know.

Then they say "no" so what! It's not like we're going to commit suicide over a game. They're answers should carry information, not vague evasive cop-outs!

If they say no, then people WILL jump on them for not responding to the wishes of the community. Been there, seen that.

Who said anything about "flowery suck-ups".

Lib did. His paragraph long "your business is important to us and we take every single suggestion blah blah" was a flowerly piece of prose SAYING THE EXACT SAME THING as Firaxis said. Go back and read it. Most of it was ego-stroking PR babble.

Do you want ego stroking PR babble? If you want good ego stroking PR babble, then Firaxis needs to send a PR person in here. Do you want a PR person in here?

One more time:

Do you want PR people here or do you want game designers/programmers in here?

[Libertarian]

Do you want PR people here or do you want game designers/programmers in here?

[...shrug...]

Makes little difference to me whether I get the brush-off from Tweedle Dum or from Tweedle Dee.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by XPav

Check the dates on my posts buddy. I didn't move, I was responding to EVERY SINGLE THREAD Lib started.

Blah blah blah... whatever.

Yes, I have talked to my customers in this way. I have given out the exact same answer than was given out to Firaxis. "I know you want that, but I don't know if we'll do it or not." My customer didn't seem to mind. Then again, my customers are in the same business as me, and understand me when I tell them the truth.

Well you've killed your own point, "regulars" and "friends" do not count. I was referring to someone who is new to that enviroment (store). What do you do if the customer insists on the information and your "Owner-Superior" says "We have no idea, but we'll tell you when we have something concrete". Let's see....

A) Customer leaves, goes to different store.
B) Customer agrees, patiently awaits for another day.
C) Customer tells you where to go, and how to get there fast.

Chances are, "A" is the more common response when you treat customers like that. In other words YOU LOSE BUSINESS. And if your doing that where you work, I feel sorry for your companies profit margin, because your slacking with their money.

Its the truth. They know you want it, they haven't decided on whether or not they are going to put it in, and so they have nothing to tell you. However, they're being hounded for an answer, so they give the only one they know.

Good point. But we're not asking for promises or definates. We're asking for "progress reports" what are they working on, and have they had any success with those specifics etc. Don't twist the issue. They can give us that information without compromising anything. "I'm sorry I have nothing to say, so I won't say it" is a bullsh_t response. And that definetly is disqualified as any type of answer! The answer must contain information regarding their progress or success in the matter, or its NO answer at all. And beleive me THEY HAVE THOSE ANSWERS! They are working on all of those things now. To not answer, on reveals them as trying to "hide".

If they say no, then people WILL jump on them for not responding to the wishes of the community. Been there, seen that.

Sorry, but in the real world, they could be the best game company on the face of earth. And the politest people in the world, customers will ALWAYS be a pain in the ass. When a customer is disatisfied, you have two choices... ignore them (which poors salt on the wound) or help them. Simple.

Lib did. His paragraph long "your business is important to us and we take every single suggestion blah blah" was a flowerly piece of prose SAYING THE EXACT SAME THING as Firaxis said. Go back and read it. Most of it was ego-stroking PR babble.

Sorry I didn't read anything like that. That's your opinion, not a fact. His questions made complete sense to me. Jeff's answer was lame though.

Do you want ego stroking PR babble? If you want good ego stroking PR babble, then Firaxis needs to send a PR person in here. Do you want a PR person in here?

Again, assisting customers who "whine" has nothing to do with ego anything. It's called "they paid for the product" so you "give them what they want". I know it sounds like a bullsh_t way to do things, but thats the way customers wanna be treated when they buy things. Don't you want some ass kissing in a store once in a while when you go shopping? Don't you enjoy it when the store-employees treat you with utter respect and often royalty, in order to win your sale? Think about it.

One more time:
Do you want PR people here or do you want game designers/programmers in here?

Both! A PR person always ready and available to answer questions, and when the PR person can't ... a designer steps in and does! Simple logic. Not Whining, not royalty, not ego-stroking, blah blah bullsh_t. Simple consumer respect via helpful/truthful information. And..."We don't have anything concrete right now, so I can't say" is a response, NOT an answer. All that's doing is "walling" people out.

Charles.