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  • CivIII was designed to look good at first sight

    And it was a success: It took even me in for a few weeks , and it certainly did take in the reviewers.

    But in fact, and this is my final conclusion, everything the pessimists said was an understatement: CivIII, imo, is one of the worst 4xgames ever made.

    Why, you ask? Well, the main reason is, everything in the game -not just the leader faces- is a caricature. Take government systems, for example: Instead of giving us a lot of governments, but making the differences between them subtle, they opted for just 5, but ridiculously overdid their effects. Because of forced labour, Despotism and Communism, in the hands of a human player, are unbeatable. Take forced labour away, however, and Democracy/Republic will be unbeatable. Instead of real life shades of grey, we get a small number of clownish caricature-governments, and not even those are well balanced.

    Exactly the same with units: The obvious thing would have been either a stone/scissors/paper approach or stacked combat, or both. There should have been a large number of slightly different units to reward the master tactician, who finds exactly the right thing for the job. Instead, we get caricatures again: Enjoy moving enormous amounts of one-and-the-same overpowered attack unit (Horsemen/Knights/Cavalry) individually through the landscape, but only if you are a masochist, because it´s equally cumbersome and unrewarding.

    I could go on and on, but it all comes up to this: They wanted to create a simplistic Mickey-Mouse style Civgame, that appeals to Command-and Conquer players, because that is where the mass market is (and where most reviewers are), and, to add insult to injury, they didn´t even have the decency to test it well!

    My advice (to myself and others): Never again buy a game that has Sid Meier´s name on it! These days, that´s a guarantee for shoddyness.
    Last edited by Comrade Tribune; December 17, 2001, 19:59.
    Now, if I ask myself: Who profits from a War against Iraq?, the answer is: Israel. -Prof. Rudolf Burger, Austrian Academy of Arts

    Free Slobo, lock up George, learn from Kim-Jong-Il.

  • #2
    I agree with your comments (i.e. everything is simplified), but I disagree that this simplification makes an awful game. The game (for me at least) is fun to play. I do get the impression that Civ3 is a good game that is a great game in the making. It just needs some tweaking (multiplayer, scenarios, culture overhaul). Essentially I look at this like a beta version of the Civ3 Multiplayer gold edition that is sure to follow which will (or should) fix a lot of what needs fixing.

    Out of curiosity, what is your take on Civ2? Presuming you've played it, how does it differ from Civ3 in this regard (over simplification)? I ask this because if you've played Civ2, I assume you liked it because you got Civ3. If you didn't like it, how is Civ3 worse? Furthermore, what game features the level of sophistication that you seem to be demanding of Civ3?

    Finally, I think comparing Civ to Command and Conquer is a bit of a stretch. They are quite different games.

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    • #3
      The late game is so tedious that the once famous "just one more turn" becomes "please not another turn".
      "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by felder
        I agree with your comments (i.e. everything is simplified), but I disagree that this simplification makes an awful game. The game (for me at least) is fun to play. I do get the impression that Civ3 is a good game that is a great game in the making. It just needs some tweaking (multiplayer, scenarios, culture overhaul). Essentially I look at this like a beta version of the Civ3 Multiplayer gold edition that is sure to follow which will (or should) fix a lot of what needs fixing.
        After playing it for some time now, I think it can´t be fixed. The balance problems are not in the numbers, they are in the rules themselves. For example, with having more and more units, and the need to supply them with shields, your production capacity went down in CivI/II, which was a good thing. Paying with gold, instead, if you are willing to sacrifice science, your army can grow to unreal numbers without any real counterbalance. Despotic Conquest can´t really be fixed, Mounted Units can never be balanced, because their retreat ability means that, managed carefully, they will have no losses at all. Apart from something as unimportant as realism, how do you want to balance immortality?

        Out of curiosity, what is your take on Civ2? Presuming you've played it, how does it differ from Civ3 in this regard (over simplification)? I ask this because if you've played Civ2, I assume you liked it because you got Civ3. If you didn't like it, how is Civ3 worse? Furthermore, what game features the level of sophistication that you seem to be demanding of Civ3?
        I believe that CivI was, at its time , the best game on the market. Simplicity, at that time, was a necessary evil, because of RAM limits. I don´t think the same simplicity would have been a good idea, had it been entirely a voluntary design decision.

        As to CivII, I consider it a slightly improved CivI, but not quite as good as I would have liked it to be. There are a few things about CivII where I am less than enthusiastic: It was a bit more predictable than the original, the AI was not a killer, random maps were poor, and they didn´t fix ICS. That all said, I consider it a better game than CivIII: The governments/units/combat system mostly felt right, they didn´t have this comic-book-like atmosphere about them. CivII had some issues, but it was certainly a serious effort, while CivIII is more like some weird joke...

        Finally, I think comparing Civ to Command and Conquer is a bit of a stretch. They are quite different games.
        What I meant is it reminds me of RedAlertII/Command and ConquerII stylistically; Ridiculous Factions = Ridiculous CivIII Governments, Unbalanced Units = Unbalanced Units. I actually prefer C&CII over CivIII: It doesn´t remotely pretend to be about history, and it has cool movies.
        Now, if I ask myself: Who profits from a War against Iraq?, the answer is: Israel. -Prof. Rudolf Burger, Austrian Academy of Arts

        Free Slobo, lock up George, learn from Kim-Jong-Il.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Libertarian
          The late game is so tedious that the once famous "just one more turn" becomes "please not another turn".
          Aargh, tell me about it. It's actually gotten to the point wherein I've gone into the editor and cut the time it takes a worker to do anything in half. I've found that the job gets done much more quickly, the pace of the game is picked up sooner, and you can actually do away with the majority of workers.
          Making the Civ-world a better place (and working up to King) one post at a time....

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm proud to say that it only took me 4 days to reach this conclusion. Would have been 1 day except damn work and life got in the way.
            I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

            "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Libertarian
              The late game is so tedious that the once famous "just one more turn" becomes "please not another turn".
              hear hear...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Libertarian
                The late game is so tedious that the once famous "just one more turn" becomes "please not another turn".
                well find a game you like and PISS OFF.

                Ok its rude but seriously this board is FULL of people that just cant stop whining. It's sick! If you dont like it, if its no fun just STOP. Some stores where I live even have a 7 day 'return it if you dont like it' policy.

                Phew. I know I'm one of the rare people on these boards that like the game but seriously sometimes things just arent what you expect. GET OVER IT!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by yin26
                  I'm proud to say that it only took me 4 days to reach this conclusion. Would have been 1 day except damn work and life got in the way.
                  But you returned the game prematurely, depriving yourself of the opportunity to experience how bad it really is...

                  Now, if I ask myself: Who profits from a War against Iraq?, the answer is: Israel. -Prof. Rudolf Burger, Austrian Academy of Arts

                  Free Slobo, lock up George, learn from Kim-Jong-Il.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    LOL! Maybe I should got back and buy the LE just feel *real* pain?
                    I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

                    "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Libertarian
                      The late game is so tedious that the once famous "just one more turn" becomes "please not another turn".
                      For me, it lacks that "just one more GAME" feeling.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Surgeon


                        well find a game you like and PISS OFF.

                        Ok its rude but seriously this board is FULL of people that just cant stop whining.
                        Well find another forum and PISS OFF.

                        Ok its rude but seriously this board is FULL of people that just cant stop whining about 'whiners'.
                        Making the Civ-world a better place (and working up to King) one post at a time....

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm sorry, I completely agree with Surgeon.

                          I've been reading these boards since the day Civ 3 was released in Europe, and what was originaly a set of decent comments on some peoples perception of the game has unfortunately turned into a set of people whining about the same things *again* and *again*.

                          Get over it. If you hated the game, then return it and stop shouting about how bad it was.

                          Constructive critiscism is fine, but when the same people leap into every single thread and make the same totally negative comments for no apparent purpose, it just makes the boards pointless. If you really want to preach, scream and shout, got to a general gaming board and post there. At least you might affect other peoples opinions - posting critiscm like this on the Civ 3 boards is pointless and annoying for the people actually enjoying this brilliant game, or at least trying to make it better.


                          Just to go against the flow - I personally think Civ 3 is the best evolution of the genre so far. Its the first 4x game I've ever played where the AI shows some semblance of intelligence. I love the resource concept, and I like the seperate ages thing.

                          (Obviously, this doesn't include Master Of Magic, easily the best 4x game ever created... :-) (and no, thats not sarcasm!) )

                          In fact, I even like the idea that no matter how much I'm winning by, I still have to put a tiny amount of thought into my actions - I don't know why, but a lot of people here seem to prefer the Civ 2 and SMAC concept of taking 5 units, and totally overrunning the world in 2 turns.

                          Phew.

                          Rant mode off.



                          P.S. Re the original comment. Huh?

                          The same government types and concepts have been in all 3 civ games - how come suddenly their clownish and childish? And yes, the pop rush is overbalanced, and will probably be fixed in the next patch. Its not like Civ 2 or SMAC had unbeatable strategies that always conquered the computer, is it? :-)
                          (for goodness sake, in SMAC you didn't need a strategy - just build units intelligently, something the computer never managed to grasp).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Why?

                            Originally posted by Surgeon


                            well find a game you like and PISS OFF.

                            Ok its rude but seriously this board is FULL of people that just cant stop whining. It's sick! If you dont like it, if its no fun just STOP. Some stores where I live even have a 7 day 'return it if you dont like it' policy.

                            Phew. I know I'm one of the rare people on these boards that like the game but seriously sometimes things just arent what you expect. GET OVER IT!
                            Why should any dissatisfied person piss off? If a majority of the posters are "whining" about the game and can't seem to stop wouldn't that mean that would mean you are in the minority and should be the person to leave.

                            However, I don't think you should and neither should the whiners. The purpose of a forum is to have debate and discussion. For it to be interesting, it takes dissenting opinions. If THAT is not want you want to read about then you should question your own motives for posting. What specifically do you like about the game?
                            "Our lives are frittered away by detail....simplify, simplify."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Be'lial

                              Some of the posters continue with the same "whine" everytime because either nobody is willing to come up with a decent rebuttal or the poster is operating under the premise that the squeaky wheel gets the patch. I find that I have to post the same or similar comments in multiple threads to get a response.

                              I find the graphics to be a bit cartoonish and primitve compared to what is now possible. As for the governments, SMAC and CTP2 had much better models. The five offered in Civ3 are too simplistic for what should represent an evolution in the genre.

                              Those two faults lead me to believe that Civ3 is intended to have mass market appeal instead of any serious longevity. The casual gamer will buy it, play it, discard it within a few months to move on to the next game flavor of the week.
                              "Our lives are frittered away by detail....simplify, simplify."

                              Comment

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