A recommendation to Firaxis

[PN]

I know less than diddly squat about developing and publishing games, but I have been in IT for over 20 years first as a developer and now as a service delivery project manager. Using this experience I would recommend to Firaxis that they put their hands up and say:

• We know that there are these bugs and this is where you can find a comprehensive list
• These old bugs which we said are fixed didn't get fixed really
• Please report any new bugs through this official channel (either Infogrames or a new facility on the official site).
• We acknowledge that there are some stability problems.
• We stand by/withdraw the 1.16 patch (delete as applicable).
• As a result we need to go away, stop talking to you for a while about new features and sort these problems out first.

What I feel is needed is a new baseline code release from which to move forwards. (And capturing new bug reports through these forums is the most inappropriate way to do it.)

For my part, I'm unsure whether or not I should use the 1.16 patch, particularly as (because of a Firaxis post on another thread) I cannot be sure that the bugs that Firaxis say are fixed, really have been fixed at all. [It's the top post where they ask us to say whether the bugs in the readme have been fixed or not.]

[Libertarian]

It is very important to acknowledge people. When you feel abandoned, soon enough you leave.

[Pythagoras]

I dont think that the few posts (at most a few a day a person) really constitute much of a negative effect on their work. Besides its their freakin job and their freakin free time. Im sure they can handle software development just fine without us dictating how much time they need to spend on the forum. And besides I think theyrd be 100 bazillion posts with "hey firaxis! whered you go! GIMEE AN ANSWER!"

[PN]

I think the important parts of what I'm suggesting are that:

• it's temporary
• there are other places for people to contact them and find out information in a much more controlled and structured manner. For example, all bug reports are better done through forms (and not forums) where all the necessary information about hardware and software can be captured. Infogrames use this structure but unfortunately have not responded (even with an auto-acknowledgement). That's something else that needs fixing.
• they would be better spending their time concentrating on what is wrong than 'consulting' about futures. I say this because I don't belive there will be any futures if they don't fix what is wrong first.

I have to say that this is the most bug-ridden, unstable game I have bought in 20 years, and the debacle of issuing 2 different patches with the same release number demonstrates unprofessional, undisciplined testing and release management practices within the company. Some of the features in the game (best example, levels of corruption) also suggest there was not enough playtesting. Only 3-4 few weeks after release in the UK, it's already fallen out of the top 10 on the high street's biggest games retailer.

Drastic situations like this need drastic remedies.

[Gramphos]

It is mush easier to get bugs confirmed in a community as this then from submissions that go to Firaxis one by one. Also they need to do something while the code complies.

There is no good solution to stop the communications with the community due to many bugs. Some bugs are really hard to find, but can affect many parts of the game, and to find such bugs they need to be able to keep a dialog with the players (ie ask for saves, and if anyone else has run into the same thing).

[ACooper]

Drastic situations like this need drastic remedies.

There are a whole bunch of people in Afganistan in a drastic situation. Some people in Africa are starving. There is a teenage girl down the street from me trying to raise a baby while finishing high school.


Civ 3 is a game. 90% of the people who play this game have no or little problem with it. Really it's just a handfull who are complaining that the game wasn't what they expected. 20 or 30 people in all of the games that were sold. Some people post so often that there is no way they could really be playing the game. (Especially with over 150 cities on deity without "stacked movement" no less)

We need to wake up and get off of the developers backs or else they just might leave because of the whining sniveling brats that post 20 times a day.

My 2 Cents

[XPav]

Originally posted by PN
I have to say that this is the most bug-ridden, unstable game I have bought in 20 years

You haven't bought many games then, have you? Either that, or you haven't gone over most of the other games released with as fine toothed comb as you have gone over Civ3 with.

Firaxis is a small company with 30 people, selling a game to a massive channel. While the forums on Apolyton and Civfanatics are important, I'm sorry folks -- for the $40-$50 you spent on Civ3, you purchased an entertainment product, not a mission critical multi-million dollar piece of software. To expect some sort of detailed accounting of bugs is UTTERLY INSANE and it would be a COMPLETE MISALLOCATION of Firaxis' limited resources if they went and spent all their time catering to the overblown egos on this and other forums!

Some more salient points:

Civ2 had, what, 3 patches?
SMAC/X had, what, 3 patches?
Gettyburg had what, 3 patches?

Notice a trend here?

Get a grip folks -- there's nothing we can do to make Firaxis fix the bugs any faster, and you're just going to have to trust them.

[gozpel]

I'm sure Firaxis "listens" to the community, even if they don't care to answer all questions.

The communtiy airs alot of problems that haven't been seen by the developers and it will maybe take time to fix most of the stuff mentioned, but hopefully it will be done soon enough. To email them privately wouldn't keep them up on their toes really, the perfect system is to use the forums (so many other games has been fixed this way) and why would Firaxis be different?

It will take time to find the problems and there will be a few more patches to come, but until then we have to be patient. The devs are only ppl and not automated

I'm sure they read every post and note all problems...just ask Soren!

[Morganstern]

The basic premises of this poll and the first post defy good business sense and human nature. If someone disagrees with the poster, is he going to just go away?

[Akka]

Originally posted by PN
I have to say that this is the most bug-ridden, unstable game I have bought in 20 years

You don't bought a lot of game then.
Compared to many I saw, this one is nearly bug-free.
If you want to talk about buggy games, talk about First Encounters or Daggerfall. Here comes some jewels when it comes to number of bugs for each code line.

[Moraelin]

Originally posted by ****gyRA
Civ 3 is a game. 90% of the people who play this game have no or little problem with it. Really it's just a handfull who are complaining that the game wasn't what they expected.

True. I expected it would actually be an innovative product, not something that brings about as much change as from "Some Company's Football 2001" to "Some Company's Football 2002." (Not that I have anything against football games, but rarely there's significantly more change than the players' names.)

20 or 30 people in all of the games that were sold.

Pointless rhetoric. As long as you didn't poll everyone who bought the game, how DO you know that everyone else who bought it SURELY likes it and wouldn't want any change? No, really. By the same kind of extrapolation, I could say that "The only people who like the game, out of all the games that were sold, are the 20 or 30 fanboys who post high praise on this forum."

The vast majority of the people who bought the game aren't even on this forum, so we'll probably never know what they think.

Besides, a lot of stuff we "whiners" have complained about, has been addressed in the patch. I guess the developpers thought they're important enough for more people than "20 or 30 people in all of the games that were sold."

Some people post so often that there is no way they could really be playing the game. (Especially with over 150 cities on deity without "stacked movement" no less)

Again, pointless rhetoric. Noone plays any game 100% of their free time.

Besides, the lack of stack movement kicks in at any level of difficulty.

We need to wake up and get off of the developers backs or else they just might leave because of the whining sniveling brats that post 20 times a day.

This is exactly the kind of fanboy 'logic' that I detest the most.

It's not a free mod. It's something they got money for. It's NOT a case of "be a nice doggy, wag your tail and say 'thanks', or you won't get more presents next year." Patching a defective product is just a fact of business, and happens because of business considerations. Not because a group of fanboys acted grateful or not.

[Moraelin]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil
You don't bought a lot of game then.
Compared to many I saw, this one is nearly bug-free.

Yep. Was wondering about that, too. There ARE quite a few design issues with Civ 3, but heck, on the whole it has a lot less bugs than most other games these days.

If you want to talk about buggy games, talk about First Encounters or Daggerfall. Here comes some jewels when it comes to number of bugs for each code line.

Indeed. Daggerfall was not only shipped buggy, but stayed buggy even after half a year of patches. Even after all that time, they still couldn't fix the issue of players falling into the void through wall corners. Eventually they just gave up and made a cheat code to teleport yourself back from the void.

But if you want something really BUGGY, take Fallout 2. Darn greatest computer RPG ever made, but it had at least one or two bugged quests/scripts on every single screen. I'm not kidding. Plus such wonders as the "disappearing car bug", where you'd lose the car, but get the car's trunk to follow you everywhere.

Or Ultima Online. Now there's a gem. After a HIDEOUS number of patches (think: three digits) it still had more bugs than an anthill when I gave up on it. Looked like each patch was breaking two thing for every thing it fixed. Plus patches that got rolled back after they screwed up everyone's macros and whatnot.

Or I remember some game called "Knights and Merchants." Not that many bugs as such, but it had one thing that you really have to wonder how it got past QA. Quite often the pathfinding would just go amok, and instead of going where ordered, some units would go to the edge of the map and try to keep going for ever. NOT a fun bug in a RTS game.

[Akka]

Originally posted by Moraelin
But if you want something really BUGGY, take Fallout 2. Darn greatest computer RPG ever made, but it had at least one or two bugged quests/scripts on every single screen. I'm not kidding. Plus such wonders as the "disappearing car bug", where you'd lose the car, but get the car's trunk to follow you everywhere.

Or Ultima Online. Now there's a gem. After a HIDEOUS number of patches (think: three digits) it still had more bugs than an anthill when I gave up on it. Looked like each patch was breaking two thing for every thing it fixed. Plus patches that got rolled back after they screwed up everyone's macros and whatnot.

Never played UO, but heard about it . And heard about Ultima 9 too, which seem to be quite a gem in the buggy area.

Fallout 2 ?
First : *praise mode on* WHAT A HELL OF A DAMN GOOD GAME ! *praise mode off*
Best RPG after Torment, period.
A very good choices about bugs too
Though, most bugs were fixed with the 1.02 patch.
And no, it just don't come any close to First Encounters. Even Daggerfall is a joke compared to First Encounters. Trust me. this one is a peak point about buggy software that it will be hard to reach. Damn good game too, though.

[jgflg]

Originally posted by Moraelin


Yep. Was wondering about that, too. There ARE quite a few design issues with Civ 3, but heck, on the whole it has a lot less bugs than most other games these days.



Indeed. Daggerfall was not only shipped buggy, but stayed buggy even after half a year of patches. Even after all that time, they still couldn't fix the issue of players falling into the void through wall corners. Eventually they just gave up and made a cheat code to teleport yourself back from the void.

But if you want something really BUGGY, take Fallout 2. Darn greatest computer RPG ever made, but it had at least one or two bugged quests/scripts on every single screen. I'm not kidding. Plus such wonders as the "disappearing car bug", where you'd lose the car, but get the car's trunk to follow you everywhere.

Or Ultima Online. Now there's a gem. After a HIDEOUS number of patches (think: three digits) it still had more bugs than an anthill when I gave up on it. Looked like each patch was breaking two thing for every thing it fixed. Plus patches that got rolled back after they screwed up everyone's macros and whatnot.

Or I remember some game called "Knights and Merchants." Not that many bugs as such, but it had one thing that you really have to wonder how it got past QA. Quite often the pathfinding would just go amok, and instead of going where ordered, some units would go to the edge of the map and try to keep going for ever. NOT a fun bug in a RTS game.

Let's not forget the MMPORGs. Anarchy Online and WWII Online lowered the bar for generations of games to come. I don't think any company had previously released such loads of unplayable dung on the populace. It took AO three months just to reach a basic level of playability, never mind delivering the gameplay as promised.

[Libertarian]

I play in one window as I post in another. What's so hard about that?

(edited for punctuation... reedited for grammar)