My Conclusions about the Firaxis-Community relations

[XPav]

Originally posted by Jack_www
I just visted the MOO3 forum here on apolyton. I must say form what I have seen I am very impressed with the way Quicksilver is very open about their game and answering people's questions about what is going to be in the game and whats not.

Lets see whats its like when the game is released. Until then, no comparison can be made. B-17 was supposed to be a great game, according to the pre-release forums and the developers. Look how that turned out. Hell, look at any forum for any game -- when the game is released I bet there will be a group of people jumping up and down saying it sucks. Look at the Civ & Civ2 sucks threads that I posted.

They also said that they are going to include mp in the intial release, unlike Civ3. I think that the people who handle PR for firaxis could learn a thing or two from the people at Quicksilver when it comes to dealling with their fans.

So what you're saying is "PR people should say anything to make their fans happy." Hey, multiplayer would be great, but Civ3 doesn't have it. Ding Civ3 for not having multiplayer, but what do you want them to do? Say it'll have it, and then not have it?

[yin26]

And when Quicksilver decided to cut some of the features they were hyping, they LOUDLY and CLEARLY and OPENLY explained why ... on the official site. And what was the fan reation? "Well, that sucks, but I'm glad they were honest with us."

Find the honesty with Firaxis. Not the 'after we've beaten them over the head and yelled and kicked and screamed at them for weeks' kind of "Firaxo-honesty," either.

I don't want to be coddled. I want to be respected (collectively, not me personally) as the person whose pockets are paying for their office space and car. And for that, I don't want to be promised the moon and delivered a beta. I want to be levelled with and not have to search 1,000 odd-ball threads for a scrap of a hint of information.

I don't want backpeddling and semantic games, either. If you hype MP, the editor and, indeed, the entire game itself as 'the best in the genre,' then I damn well want some honest answers (again, not after screaming for them for weeks) as to why MP and the editor are basically non-existent and the game itself is a bore, to put it lightly.

Tell me point blank: "We screwed up, but we're gonna fix it. Help us to do it." Cause, frankly, if Firaxis DOESN'T think they screwed this release, then they aren't just too proud to save themselves ... they're just clueless.

If Firaxis' plan is to bury its head in the sand because we big bad whiners are just so mean, that's fine by me. With its head in the sand, the Firaxis ass is just begging to be kicked. Oh, not by me, but by the big bad marketplace of whiners with holes in their pockets not quite big enough for a company seemingly unable to pay for enough storage space for its ego and incompetence.

Sure, some will argue that the whiners have holes in their heads and not in their pockets. Well, then, I suppose Firaxis is only for the 'elite' gamer: All 12 of you.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Steve Clark
That does it, Farley and Dog are now off of my Christmas list.

yin, I need to learn to take our personal banter to PM, lest someone might make the mistake of not ignoring posts that had nothing to do with them! But with you in a different day of the week, PM is hard to do in a coherent manner.

Sorry about that Steve, didn't mean to offend. But when you stated your opinion, you made it sound like your the president and the rest of us are on welfare. I'm sure you've done some pretty good things with your life, as I have. But what does "that" have to do with a "computer game" or its "consumer relations". Just thought that I would mention that. Sorry.

Oh and Steve, your still on my Christmas list.
Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by XPav

PR is the job of the publisher.

You're the people that have latched onto Firaxis, some of the designers/programmers/others at decided to volunteer to talk to you, and you're rightfully pointing out that the people who volunteered to talk to you don't have PR as their primary focus.

Do you want PR? Fine, well, then PR means that you don't talk to the designers, and have to deal with interviews and stuff slapped on a website. There's no point in spending money hiring a PR person to stroke the ego of all the types of people that hang out on web forums.

Its not worth it for small companies to hire someone to do community relations, and from my experience it, forums where designers and programmers talk to fans are more a hindrance to the completion of a good game.

Reading the board for ideas -- thats one thing. Stepping up to be called names is another.

You make a good point Xpav, I agree with you 100%. So why doesn't Firaxis update the "Civilization@home" site on a regular basis to keep us informed? As it stands that site is a ghost ship. Why can't they post public messages in the forums addressing all issues on ONE post, (similiar to a newsletter) so that the public can see that they have addressed those issues. Rather than post individual messages! My idea works, but will they use it? And don't say they have, because I'm informed enough to know that they don't!

Charles.

[Xentropy]

Originally posted by yin26
Tell me point blank: "We screwed up, but we're gonna fix it. Help us to do it." Cause, frankly, if Firaxis DOESN'T think they screwed this release, then they aren't just too proud to save themselves ... they're just clueless.

Sure, some will argue that the whiners have holes in their heads and not in their pockets. Well, then, I suppose Firaxis is only for the 'elite' gamer: All 12 of you.

You think only 12 people--out of at least tens, probably hundreds, of thousands of people who have tried the game--enjoy Civ3 . . . and Firaxis is clueless? How's THAT for exaggeration and bandwagon argumentation?

I've decided to stop bothering making counterpoints you will ignore and just enjoy your posts as the incredible farcical entertainment they are.

I no longer have a problem with you posting the same things over and over without merit, yin Best satire on the web next to The Onion!

Keep up the good work!

[N. Machiavelli]

Originally posted by Xentropy


You think only 12 people--out of at least tens, probably hundreds, of thousands of people who have tried the game--enjoy Civ3 . . . and Firaxis is clueless? How's THAT for exaggeration and bandwagon argumentation?

I've decided to stop bothering making counterpoints you will ignore and just enjoy your posts as the incredible farcical entertainment they are.

I no longer have a problem with you posting the same things over and over without merit, yin Best satire on the web next to The Onion!

Keep up the good work!

Isn't it amazing that some people have problems comprehending sarcasm?

[XPav]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley


You make a good point Xpav, I agree with you 100%. So why doesn't Firaxis update the "Civilization@home" site on a regular basis to keep us informed?
Charles.

[apavloff@shodan apavloff]$ whois civ3.com

Registrant:
Infogrames Interactive, Inc. (CIV5-DOM)
c/o Infogrames, Inc. 417 Fifth
Avenue
New York, NY 10016
US

That's why -- its not Firaxis' site, its Infogrames, and Infogrames is the one that's supposed to do the PR. However, Infogrames PR is smart enough to avoid web forums and usenet, because they know that their brand of corporate PR, aimed at magazines, game web sites, and the mass market, doesn't go over well in discussion forums.

[yin26]

It's always sad to have to reply to people who don't even understand what you said in the first place.

When I said '12,' did you take that number literally? I think you did. Are you even the least bit embarrased?

However, when I said Firaxis is clueless, THAT is something I meant directly as written.

Can you not discern a difference in the two statements. *sigh* Like reading poetry to monkeys...

[yin26]

N. Machiavelli: You posted first.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by XPav
Lets see whats its like when the game is released. Until then, no comparison can be made. B-17 was supposed to be a great game, according to the pre-release forums and the developers. Look how that turned out. Hell, look at any forum for any game -- when the game is released I bet there will be a group of people jumping up and down saying it sucks. Look at the Civ & Civ2 sucks threads that I posted.

So what you're saying is "PR people should say anything to make their fans happy." Hey, multiplayer would be great, but Civ3 doesn't have it. Ding Civ3 for not having multiplayer, but what do you want them to do? Say it'll have it, and then not have it?

We already know they can "design it".. nothing is impossible in code. I know several programmers. And they code anything and everything, as long as it doesn't go outside the code laungage parameters. Which for example means, using VB code in a C++ enviroment. That sort of thing. In other words, THEY CAN DO IT, but will they? But I think what yin and others are saying is that they don't have to tell us everything, but they're not even telling us anything. Something is better than nothing. And its not hard for Firaxis to give is factual information like "I'm sorry, we're having trouble coding the MP feature right now, it might be (and he over-estimates ofcaorse) a few more months before anything is developed" what would be wrong with that style of communication? I see no problem with it. And you made the point that they can't "answer everyone". But I made the point that they could, if they did newsletter-style posts, or update the home site more often. So there is no excuse.

Simply, business's should never "ignore" their clients/customers. Otherwise they lose money. As Firaxis is right now, I'm sure.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Xentropy


You think only 12 people--out of at least tens, probably hundreds, of thousands of people who have tried the game--enjoy Civ3 . . . and Firaxis is clueless? How's THAT for exaggeration and bandwagon argumentation?

I've decided to stop bothering making counterpoints you will ignore and just enjoy your posts as the incredible farcical entertainment they are.

I no longer have a problem with you posting the same things over and over without merit, yin Best satire on the web next to The Onion!

Keep up the good work!

Oh here's Xentropy again...

You don't *read* what people say do you? You just scan it quickly and then start bantering off criticism. Yin was simply stating his experiences with Firaxis, and believe me they're not uncommon experiences in the Civilization-Community. Firaxis currently does have bad PR. Its a fact, otherwise nobody would be complaining. Why do you think people complain? Reason with yourself and think about it.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by XPav


[apavloff@shodan apavloff]$ whois civ3.com

Registrant:
Infogrames Interactive, Inc. (CIV5-DOM)
c/o Infogrames, Inc. 417 Fifth
Avenue
New York, NY 10016
US

That's why -- its not Firaxis' site, its Infogrames, and Infogrames is the one that's supposed to do the PR. However, Infogrames PR is smart enough to avoid web forums and usenet, because they know that their brand of corporate PR, aimed at magazines, game web sites, and the mass market, doesn't go over well in discussion forums.

Pav, I already know "why" they avoid forums. But all I'm saying is, I think they're wrong for it. There has to be some form of PR. And I gave a very good suggestion in my earlier post I dont know if you caught it, but I'll repeat it for you. They can *easily* post "newsletter-style" updates in the forums. A member of Firaxis grabs all the information/questions etc and then they answer them in Q&A format or other, whichever suits them. And they dont have to go one on one with any fans. It's a simple system, and it WOULD work. And if that doesn't the least they could do is update their website! Did you catch all that, or do I have to repeat it? Please elaborate on that one issue.

Charles.

[XPav]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley


We already know they can "design it".. nothing is impossible in code. I know several programmers.

I'm a programmer, and you're right -- nothing is impossible in technical terms.

"I'm sorry, we're having trouble coding the MP feature right now, it might be (and he over-estimates ofcaorse) a few more months before anything is developed" what would be wrong with that style of communication?

A couple things.

1) That message gives confirmation that there will be multiplayer. What if there isn't?
2) Never, ever give time estimates out to those that aren't signing your checks. What if something else comes up (person gets a new job, company gets sold etc etc) that pushes those dates back?
3) The word "trouble coding" is too unspecific. What does it mean? That the programmers are stupid? That its taking longer than expected? Does it taking longer than expected mean the programmers are stupid?

The only acceptable communication would be:
* Multiplayer will be in our expansion pack (or deluxe edition, or whatever).

Simply, business's should never "ignore" their clients/customers. Otherwise they lose money. As Firaxis is right now, I'm sure.

Firaxis' client/customer is Infogrames.

Not us.

However, Infogrames doesn't want to deal with us, but some of the Firaxis folks have volunteered to talk with us.

Now they're in the not-so-enviable position of taking the flak from the community but not having full control over the direction of the product.

Since we do not have the full details of the contract between Infogrames and Firaxis, we also do not know how Firaxis gets paid (royalties, no royalties?), and we do not know how much money Infogrames pays Firaxis to do post-release patching.

(now I'm saving this post in notepad so that if Apolyton tells me its busy, I can still post it later).

[yin26]

Firaxis to Infogrames: "So, we won't be able to deal with the fans in any kind of professional way if we sign with you?"

Infogrames: "Yep. That's how we do business."

Firaxis: "Does Sid have to sign directly? He's busy working on a game he actually likes with some people who actually care."

Infogrames: "No. Any Firaxis drone will do."

[XPav]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley


Pav, I already know "why" they avoid forums. But all I'm saying is, I think they're wrong for it. There has to be some form of PR. And I gave a very good suggestion in my earlier post I dont know if you caught it, but I'll repeat it for you. They can *easily* post "newsletter-style" updates in the forums. A member of Firaxis grabs all the information/questions etc and then they answer them in Q&A format or other, whichever suits them. And they dont have to go one on one with any fans. It's a simple system, and it WOULD work. And if that doesn't the least they could do is update their website! Did you catch all that, or do I have to repeat it? Please elaborate on that one issue.

Charles.

1) Civ3.com is not Firaxis' web site.
2) Too many of the answer to people's questions would be

I don't like XXX, will you change it?
* That's a good idea. We will not change it though.

Answering question after question after question takes too much time. I'm a programmer. I have one person in my company bug me every day about "can we do XXX because customer YYY wants it." or "How do I do QQQ."

I usually say NO because we have better things to do that will pay the bills. I spend probably an hour a day helping with support questions that need me (as the programmer) to help with.

And that's the questions from one guy.

Now make it a hundred guys on usenet/apolyton/civfanatics.

As the manager of a company, are you going to dedicate a programmer to answering these questions to the depth that will satisfy the people asking the questions? Its your publisher's job to be handling PR and support.

Are you, as the manager responsible for making sure that there is money to pay the bills and payroll with, going to allocate the time of the skilled programmer to collating & answering questions on a webforum?

Really?

As the manager, who do you decide to put up in front of the webforum to read the board & the abuse within? Do you ask for volunteers? How would you, as a manager, feel about reading page after page about how your company is incompetent, greedy, and unethical? As a manager, do you even WANT to force your employees to take the morale hit that reading these board entails? (And it is a morale hit -- I've seen that first hand).

At the end of the day, its a business, and when you line up the numbers and weigh the pros and cons, its pretty obvious why Firaxis doesn't pay as much attention to these boards as you'd like:

Its just not worth it.