Registering my Disgust...

[habadacus]

...and hoping someone out there can help me to alleviate it. I'm sure it's been said before, and I'm sure I speak for many here. Alexander want to do it. Ceasar wanted to do it. Napoleon wanted to do it Hitler wanted to do it. And by god I want to do it too. To Build a glorious civilization, crush all oppoinents, roll over horsemen in my shiny new tanks and rule the entire world. That's what civ 1 was, and civ 2. I bought this game and what am I now? A limp-wristed mincing artist type, embracing the world with my culture? A long-winded gas-bag butt-kiss diplomat stroking the egos of other rulers? I wanna puke. I conqured 2 lousy civs, one of which was rather small, and after 2 ages my annexed cities are still producing 1 shield/1 gold. Democracy, Courthouse, Police station, we love me day, all luxuries, connected by road, rail, air and sea, heavily garrrisoned, and not even all that far from the capitol. I'm so disappointed I wanna throw this CD out the window. The quote I found on civ3.com should have been writ large on the cover of the box for this game:

CIV 3!!! - BEST GAME EVER!!!
"Under this new system, you cannot control ever city in the world and expect them to still function."
SOME FUN!!! - BUY IT NOW!!!

Then I could have saved myself $50. If I want Reality, Culture and Diplomacy I'll sit and watch CSpan and PBS all night for cryin' out loud. What if I, the guy with the $50 in his pocket, WANT to control every city in the world, like I did the last 2 times I bought this game, and see to it that they function (at least a little) UNDER PENALTY OF DEATH.

Now thats that's off my chest - can someone PLEASE tell me how to tweak the game so the corruption and waste is back to a reasonable level. Some is fine, even a lot - none at all under democracy in Civ2 seemed a little too low. I saw some of the mods that claim to do it, but I don't want a bunch of major changes and rediculous units, just a simple toning down of the inexplicable waste so I can actually build a measly temple in my captured and heavily garrisoned Rome after 120 years of building on Warlord difficuly. ANY info GREATLY appreciated!!!!!!!!!

[jadlakha]

PREACH ON MY BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!

[wapamingo]

Ahem...

You obviously have not grasped the concept of Civ3.

I currently play Emperor difficulty with 16 civs on Huge map (Max Land vs Water ratio, Continents). There are 8 civs on my continent. Early on I have dispached of the Persians (they moved on to another part) and recently I have taken care of the Greeks (I play as Egyptians, I exterminated the Greeks). The Persians were 2x my size at the time, the Greeks 0.5x my size. The Persians were a chalange and took me a while to take out. The Greeks were a breeze. This warmongering have made me the most powerfull on the continent, both militarily and scientifically. I used my leaders to build wonders I wanted (Sistene Chapel, one of them). I have plans to start a war with the strongest on my continent. I decided to retire for the night and compare myself to the rest of the world. I knew so far that I was strongest by score on my continent (300 points above the 2nd) but knew nothing of the other 8 civs since my continent had no contact with the other. When I retired I was very supprised to find myself on the very top. NO ONE was even close. I was ahead 300 points! This is still Medeaval Age.

This is not to brag but to just point out that it is quite achievable to be a warmonger. You just have to adapt. Welcome times of peace for growth. Welcome other civs waring between each other as trade opportunities (currently I supply the poor english with iron and horses in exchange for large sums of money...they are fighting 3 other civs). Build your armies and modernize old ones (even though it is very expensive...costs me 100 gp to upgrade my War Chariots to Knights...darn Chinese built Leonardo's Workshop just about when I researched Invention first on my continent...I have no contact with Chinese which leads me to believe the other continent is more scientifically advanced than mine...)

Anyways...as you can see...Don't give up. If I can do it, so can you!

Cheers,

[wapamingo]

oh I forgot...

Corruption: Yes it is a problem. A lot of my cities are garbage ..especially further away.

Solution:

--> Move your palace and build your Forbidden Palace so as to best battle corruption. Works fine for me and I got 50+ cities in the game I described above.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Civilization III was not designed to be "just" a wargame. We've been saying this for months.

That said, if you disagree with the role of culture and diplomacy, it is entirely within your power to remove them using the editor.

Go in and remove all culture values from buildings so you won't have to worry about that. Remove resource prereqs from the units and you'll probably never have to trade for anything except technology again.

We obviously can't design a game that pleases everyone simultaneously, but you have the tools necessary to radically alter the game if parts of it disagree with you.

Dan

[wapamingo]

Give it to them Dan

[Velociryx]

Well said Dan! I've been makin' the claim that Civ3 is not a wargame at all....at least not in the classic (Gary Grigsby, etc.) sense of the word. ::shrug:: Not that I'm convincing anybody, but it's kinna fun to keep repeating....

-=Vel=-
PS: I think it's a great game!

[Venger]

Originally posted by wapamingo
Ahem...

You obviously have not grasped the concept of Civ3.

Oh, but he has - if you want a limpwrist culturefest, by all means buy it.

If you want to build an empire, go boot Civ2 again.

This is not to brag but to just point out that it is quite achievable to be a warmonger. You just have to adapt.

The word you are looking for is "suffer". Conquering an empire is tedious and unrewarding in this game. Wait till you actually try taking a city on another continent - get ready for 1 shield regardless of what you do. Oh, and you'll never be able to be at peace, because the AI won't talk to you, so your Democracy will fall...

Anyways...as you can see...Don't give up. If I can do it, so can you!

I can cut my lawn with scissors. Why would I want to? Civ3 is the same way - tedious and unrewarding for anything but the utterly easy and devoid of fun UN/Spaceship/Culture win.

Venger
P.S. I have 150 cities in the game, and the forbidden palace as well. It helped on my continent a bit, but the corruption is STILL excessive, and that even with personal mods to reduce it.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Vel,

Thanks, it's really good to hear that you enjoy the game, especially given your extensive experience with SMAC(X)...


Dan

[Akka]

wapamingo : I don't think that the poster cares to know how good you are at Civ3. I don't even think he cares about how he can work out of the corruption and win. I think he just cares about how to lower it to allow himself to have cities that WORK.

habadacus
Here is how to have a more bearable corruption :
1) Download and install the 1.16f patch that Firaxis just finished. It tones down the corruption.
2) If there is still too much, open the editor, then go to "difficulty level" and tune the corruption level as you see fit.
Done !

Dan
"We obviously can't design a game that pleases everyone simultaneously, but you have the tools necessary to radically alter the game if parts of it disagree with you"
It's very true that nobody can design a game that pleases everyone. I want to tell you that I'm personnally very happy to see that you at Firaxis considered another victory ways rather than only pure raw conquest. I want you to know that though I make critics on the game, I do still see the efforts you put in it.

This said, NO we don't have the tools necessary to change the game as we want. The rules editor is great, but it lack any scenario ability, and some very useful rules modifications. I would like, i.e., to be able to change the end date, or to change the number of years that pass with each turn, or change how much culture I have to get to win a cultural victory, or to give to my workers the ability to terraform land, or TO GET THE FIREPOWER AND HIT POINT IN A UNIT-BY-UNIT BASIS BACK (why the combat system from Civ2 was removed is just ununderstandable, FP/HP were such usefull for modding and realism that I can't get the step back).

I don't think, of course, that I can ask to a company to remake the game as I want. But the "extra moddability" was just promised by Firaxis to us. I know you work hard on the game and the patches, and I am not a child. I can wait until the most urgent work is finished, and I won't ask you to work during the night to build this editor for me. I sincerely thank you about the personnal involvement to fix things.

But at the end, even if this take some time, I feel that Firaxis OWE this editor to its customers, and I hope that it will be as wonderful as it was promised.
I already see your "hints" about the editor in your previous messages, though, so I am quite confident about this, and I do trust you

[Velociryx]

Ahhh, no worries there bud....(I would tell you that I actually missed work on the day it came out cos I was up all night playing it, but....on the off-chance that my boss reads this...nahhh...I really WAS sick that day!)

I'm enjoying it very much, and when you get a bit, mosey over to the strategy section, where we've been busily dissecting your latest creation....trying to come up with (hopefully innovative) ways of controlling the undercurrent of the game, in addition to puzzing out the best ways of dealing with cultural reversion and other roadblocks you guys have put in our path...good discussions so far!

Oh....a question for you re: the Prima v. Hurrican Games thing. How long does Prima's exclusivity last??? I'm asking cos I'm working on my own strat guide, but the last thing I want is a horde of corporate lawyer types trying ti p*ss in my cornflakes....

-=Vel=-

[jbrians]

Re: Registering my Disgust...

I bought this game and what am I now? A limp-wristed mincing artist type, embracing the world with my culture? A long-winded gas-bag butt-kiss diplomat stroking the egos of other rulers? I wanna puke. I conqured 2 lousy civs, one of which was rather small,

You can be a warmonger if you like. If you focus entirely on military you will, as all other civilizations before you, ultimately fail.
The root problem here is corruption, which is greatly alleviated with the patch (and is made available for further alteration in the editor). You will never be able to control every city in the world and have them be productive, but you can gain benefit from carefully conducted wars.

Seriously, try again with the patch. You can play an aggressive militeristic civ and succeed to some degree.
-Brian

[wapamingo]

"because the AI won't talk to you, so your Democracy will fall... "

I actually had a war while a democracy for 500 odd years. I had all luxuries (mostly traded for them), all my cities had marketplaces, my luxury rate was 20%. NO city ever went into dissorder (well maybe once). I had a police station and Womans Suffarage (I played Regent Level, Huge map, 16 civs, I was pretty big as well). No problem. I actually thought it would be and was hoping the war would not last long...but opportunity arose (fall of an allied capital that contained 4 wonders...of course I had to race and "liberate" it from the enemy). But it was not a problem. The war went on for a long time...and just recently another war stared with my old time allies and biggest rivals. I stopped playing that game b/c of tromendous turn wait.

Anyways.

I agree that corruption is a problem. But so what. Being a democracy I could certanly afford to buy any building I want. That city is not essential to me and eventhough having it all nice would be very beneficial, having it so bad is not detrimental either. Just keep the pop low and have basic buildings in there. having it adds to your score.

So again. If you know how to manage crappy situations like that, you can play this game no problem.

Afterall: Its just anothe chalange for you to beat.

Besides: The computer suffers from the same problem.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil
wapamingo : I don't think that the poster cares to know how good you are at Civ3. I don't even think he cares about how he can work out of the corruption and win. I think he just cares about how to lower it to allow himself to have cities that WORK.

habadacus
Here is how to have a more bearable corruption :
1) Download and install the 1.16f patch that Firaxis just finished. It tones down the corruption.
2) If there is still too much, open the editor, then go to "difficulty level" and tune the corruption level as you see fit.
Done !

Dan
"We obviously can't design a game that pleases everyone simultaneously, but you have the tools necessary to radically alter the game if parts of it disagree with you"
It's very true that nobody can design a game that pleases everyone. I want to tell you that I'm personnally very happy to see that you at Firaxis considered another victory ways rather than only pure raw conquest. I want you to know that though I make critics on the game, I do still see the efforts you put in it.

This said, NO we don't have the tools necessary to change the game as we want. The rules editor is great, but it lack any scenario ability, and some very useful rules modifications. I would like, i.e., to be able to change the end date, or to change the number of years that pass with each turn, or change how much culture I have to get to win a cultural victory, or to give to my workers the ability to terraform land, or TO GET THE FIREPOWER AND HIT POINT IN A UNIT-BY-UNIT BASIS BACK (why the combat system from Civ2 was removed is just ununderstandable, FP/HP were such usefull for modding and realism that I can't get the step back).

I don't think, of course, that I can ask to a company to remake the game as I want. But the "extra moddability" was just promised by Firaxis to us. I know you work hard on the game and the patches, and I am not a child. I can wait until the most urgent work is finished, and I won't ask you to work during the night to build this editor for me. I sincerely thank you about the personnal involvement to fix things.

But at the end, even if this take some time, I feel that Firaxis OWE this editor to its customers, and I hope that it will be as wonderful as it was promised.
I already see your "hints" about the editor in your previous messages, though, so I am quite confident about this, and I do trust you

Akka,

I can understand your concern, but do we really need to talk about it in the middle of this thread? The problems the poster had with the game *ARE* "solvable" using the editor, and that was my point.

Clearly there are a lot of things you cannot currently do with the editor, but there are also a lot of things you CAN do with the editor.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled argument.

Dan

[Capt Dizle]

Great Dan, thanks...

I am glad to hear that I can easily mod the game to bring back some of functionality of Civ2 and SMAC. Can you please tell me where in the editor I can go to activate my diplomat/spy units and caravans/freights as well as where to deactivate the silly aspects of the diplomacy screen.

Thanks in advance.

jt

ps. oh, and where do I click to get the wonder movies back?