Dan, Soren, Jeff....please take a peek here....:)

[Velociryx]

Now THAT is music to my ears! Hang in there, Sniffer....hang in there!

And on the off-chance that anyone from Prima/Infogrames happens to be lurking....I only have one word for you:

Karma.

Remember it.



-=Vel=-

[Yoleus]

3rd page

3rd page and yet no Dan, no Soren, no Jeff, nobody? Well, they stated their point of view with extreme clarity in the past. Probably they are now busy with the mod/scenario stuff.

[Deornwulf]

Legal Precedence

As a layman, I know that a great deal of law is based on precedence. Having been playing computer games for years, I can remember the days when there were multiple guides out for a single computer game. Many of these guides were labeled as "unofficial" and "unauthorized." I believe that Civilization 1 was one of those games.

Another legal point I am curious about is that by granting Prima the exclusive rights to produce a strategy guide for Civ III has the two companies in essence created a monopoly based on what might be construed as unfair business practices. Did Infrogames put out bids for the guide contract? Were other strategy guide writers contacted? (Name another publisher of strategy guides that is doing the same level of business as Prima.)


I hope this information and musings help the cause.

I will never purchase another Prima Guidebook as a result of this controversy. I read through the Civ III guidebook and found it to be outdated due to the changes just prior to release and also those addressed by the patch. ( IMO strategy guides should come out at least 3 months after the initial release.)

Deornwulf - The English Teacher

[Sniffer]

I am really beginning to think that we have a chance to turn this around. The more reading I do, the more it seems like we are in the clear and that this is a case of Prima trying to throw the first punch whether it is fair or not.

Having guides come out three months after the game's release would be great, but it is impossible to make money on guides that way (someone beats you to the sales with a quick, crappy guide and very few people are interested later on). It is a damn shame, because developers/publishers who really work with the strategy writing community can get a lot more out of the final product (it certainly helps the sales of the game if there is a thriving fan base that feels loved instead of battered and abused.

If I do get to bring the guide back to life, there are a few things that I would like to add. If we get to that point, I would really like to work with the people here to make a better final product (and, of course, the profits would be divided appropriately). Ahhhh yes, many dollars for everyone (yes, three or even four dollars).



You guys have made my entire week that much better. Thanks for everything.

[HGI_Doug]

Hi, this is Doug Walsh from Hurricane Gaming *finally* catching wind of this lengthy discussion.

Here's just a couple of things that might help add to the ire that has been displayed in the previous 78 posts. BTW, I want to thank Sauron for contacting me the other day, and I can't wait to hear back from you to see what you learned.

When first being contacted by Random House I was told that the guide would be acceptable if we were to remove all screenshots and if we "didn't tell people how to play the game as much". This much Michael aka Sniffer told you. Well, according to the folks at Prima/Random House, it was Infogrames who first contacted them about this issue. Supposedly Infogrames was PO'd about the loss royalties due to the competition our guide was giving them. Prima did not know about the guide until Infogrames had contacted them (If I'm to believe everything I was told).

What they may or may not have realized was that the royalties that they may have missed out on couldn't buy the exec's a round of lattes for their next meeting!

I had an experienced business advisor (with copyright/patent exp) call Random House on the basis that this was nothing more than a strong-arm technique of theirs. We tried to have them buy us out--afterall we aren't mind readers, how were we supposed to know that they had a guide out that was "Exclusive". BTW--we never looked at Prima's guide, didn't even know about it. Anyway, what it came down to was that the fight wasn't worth prize. The way I had created the Hurricane Gaming strategy guide business was that the author would get 75-85% of the profit from each guide. I couldn't very well spend money on legal fees for the prospect of making $50.

Let me add this. I'm currently working on my 10th book for BradyGAMES, Prima's main competitor (coincidence, huh?) and I do know that the strategy guide companies pay exhorbitant fees (and royalties) to be the Official/Exclusive publisher of a title. To those who believe these contracts can't hold up in a court of law, let me point out the following.

If these contracts are invalid, then why hasn't Prima or Versus published a guide for Final Fantasy? Why was BradyGAMES the only publisher on Metal Gear Solid 2, Tony Hawk 3, Diablo? It's because these contracts are valid. Surely someone other than Prima thought Return to Castle Wolfenstein would make for a good strat guide--they won the bid, they got the exclusive rights to the guide.

BradyGAMES just happens to be comfortable with the quality of their product. I talked with their editors about us selling a guide for Max Payne (a Brady exclusive) but they simply shrugged it off, knowing that our 40 page PDF wasn't going to impact their sales. They didn't call their lawyers, they thought it was fine. And it didn't hurt their sales. We don't have the advertising, we don't have the insider info, and frankly, the person thinking about buying our guide for $3.50 or $2.50 is obviously net-savvy and knows they can get their questions answered in forums or at other fan sites.

Vel, I wish you luck. I would advise to not only seek out a lawyer, but to do a cost-benefit analysis to see if the money is worth it. If you want your expert strategies and tips to be heard and don't want the hassle of potential legal trouble, you may want to consider posting a PDF of your work free for the masses.

Happy Gaming,
Doug

[sophist]

Originally posted by HGI_Doug

If these contracts are invalid, then why hasn't Prima or Versus published a guide for Final Fantasy? Why was BradyGAMES the only publisher on Metal Gear Solid 2, Tony Hawk 3, Diablo? It's because these contracts are valid. Surely someone other than Prima thought Return to Castle Wolfenstein would make for a good strat guide--they won the bid, they got the exclusive rights to the guide.

I can't believe that. Well, I can, but I won't. Not without more convincing evidence. Possible reasons nobody competed with BradyGAMES on the above titles:

1) insufficient market for two guides
2) slower time to market because exclusive publisher gets early look at game, inside help, etc.
3) reduced sales because they aren't "official"
4) If Prima treads on BradyGAMES's turf, then they open themselves up for similar tactics later on one of their games. Best for them to keep it friendly, at least until you came along to spoil their party

Notice how none of these reasons really apply to you because profit isn't your primary motivation.

I think it's irresponsible to think that the contracts are valid simply based on the above reasoning.

[Velociryx]

Doug, I'm glad you came by here, and you're quite right....the information provided added fuel to the fire, as far as I'm concerned!

While I agree 100% with you 'bout the validity of Prima's status as the "official guide" for the game, what bugs me is this:

A friend of mine recently went to Barnes and Noble to scope out training materials for Microsoft Certification.

At the store, he saw the Official (Microsoft-Produced) Training Materials.

Right next to those were nearly identical training materials bearing the title "unofficial."

And next to those was the "MS-Networking for Dummies" series.

That Prima/Infogreed seems to be saying that because of their contract, no other person can publish their views on the game (and do so in a dramatically different way and without using the first screenshot or graphic from the game!) seems....unconstitutional? Certainly it sets up an artificial monopoly where none should exist.

Having never actually read a Prima Guide, I'm not sure what kinds of things they describe, but from comments made by others, here's a small sample of the difference:

"Vel's Guide"
....in the early game, when your biggest worry is about countering the AI's ruthless expansion, the two best, most common methods of doing so are with REX-style expansion, or via a more limited expansion scheme, coupled with the fighting of an "Oscillating War" (see details on both below).

"That other guide"
Umm....in the early game, build lots of settlers dude.

Still....your points are well taken....and though I will continue writing my guide, I will not proceed further than that until I am 100% sure of what legal legs I stand on....

-=Vel=-

[HGI_Doug]

Without going into specifics, I was told by employees of said profit-driven companies that unauthorized guides came to a very sudden standstill a few years ago when one of these companies infringed on Brady's FFVII guide.

Also, there were numerous lawsuits concerning illegal use of the artwork. One particular company thought they can get around this by hiring artists to "redraw" the main characters for a game.

I know everyone was talking about the numerous "Unofficial/Unauthorized" guides out there, but it's really not true. At least not in the US, not in the recent past.

As far as there not being enough market for multiple guides, I'd have to humbly disagree. For example, take Luigi's Mansion. Prima, Brady, Versus, and Nintendo Power all have guides for the game. Each of them pay money to Nintendo for the rights to do a book on that title--basically for the chance to profit from their title. The same goes for Conker's Bad Fur Day and Banjo-Tooie (two books I co-authored )

Diablo II, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear 2, etc... these are premiere titles that sell millions of copies. If there is enough room in the marketplace for Prima, Brady, and Nintendo Power to publish guides for Mario Kart Super Circuit (another shameless plug for one of my books), trust me.. the market can support multiple guides for those 5 star titles I just mentioned. The reason there aren't multiple guides is because some game publishers only wish to work with one strat guide company. These companies wine and dine the game company and submit bids and proposals to get the right to publish on a 5-star title. They have to do, their longevity demands it.

An amazing business, strategy guides.

[Expatriate]

Whether or not those exclusive contracts are enforceable or not, I still say just publish via a non-US website. Sure, they could potentially sue you in most civilized countries but a lot of countries have different rules on how much you can copyright.

[Sauron07]

WE HAVEN'T EVEN BEGUN TO FIGHT!!!!

Hey Doug, nice to see you made it to this discussion. I was about to email you this afternoon when something came up at work. Anyway, your picture of the strategy guide market has piqued my curiousity even more. Now I just have to get to the bottom of this.

My initial thoughts were bolstered by one comment you made about the inclusion of game art and screenshots in the strat guides. The original game art IS copyrighted material, the question then becomes, does using it in an unauthorized strategy guide sold for profit constitute "fair use". I know that the game title cannot be copyrighted and references to the concepts and ideas within the game is also ok, the question arises as to whether infogames can prevent guides which do not utilize game art or screen captures from being published and I still am at a loss for any legal theory other than possibly interference with contract(unlikely) which would override the rights of individuals like yourselves to publish your original material regarding the game. Im tempted to create a website offering a civIII strat guide and send the link to infogames just so I can find out what their rationale is.

Keep your hopes up everone, this story hasn't even begun to get interesting yet. By the way THANK YOU, you guys have renewed my interest in the law more from this thread than anything in the last two years. Im a government attorney not currently doing any private practice but with definate leanings toward public interest law and helping out the little guy so this is right up my alley.

Hey Doug, if you're interested Id love to read the correspondence you received from Prima, and maybe even to get put in touch with some of your friends within the industry. PM me or drop me an email when you get the chance.

[Velociryx]

Several things occured to me on the drive home.

First....the more I find out about this, the angrier I get....and the more determined to carry it through.

Second....I write strategy guides (among other things)....it's what I do....it's what I know....and it seems to me that this is nothing more than an exercise of the same basic strategic principles I write so much about.

This is a battle, and it would seem that the other guy has the upper hand (their side has tanks, Our side has Longbowmen.. )

So....what do you do when all the obvious avenues of attack are closed off? EDIT: In response to Sauron's post just now (cross-posted with him), he's right, all avenues of attack have NOT yet been exhausted....I'm just....thinking out loud here....

You simply force a change of venue to one where things are more even.

The fact is, there IS a way around all this stuff, we're just not seeing it yet.

Examples of workarounds that may apply:
We have blue laws in the deep south that prevent the sale of alcahol on Sunday.

What people started doing:
Selling "tickets" and giving drinks away (in exchange for X-number of tickets)

Associated application:
I just finished writing an adventure novel. I could arrange it with my printer such that, for every order for the adventure novel I got, a copy of "the guide" was sent out for free, no? ::evil grin::

Similarly, two excellent alternate plans have been fronted here by others. What about doing an in-depth review of the Prima Guide (posting my own strats in with the review as "things that they should have included")?

Or, simply publishing it outside the states?

Others? Comments on the above?

-=Vel=-
(Note to Infogreed: Never tell a redneck he can't...hehe)

[Sniffer]

I didn't know that you wrote fiction as well Vel. I'm beginning to think that we are the same person. At least you are posting from South Carolina. If you were posting from Maryland, I would really start to get nervous.

And officially, we weren't charging for the guide itself--this is rather amusing, but the charge is for the capacity to download the material rather than the guide. No one really cares, and it didn't change anything, but I wanted to mention that in case the legal gurus here thought that an angle could be used from that.

What do guys do during the day to make money? Anyone want to jump in to the exciting world of underpaid, warrior writers? Fight the law, live on Ramen for days at a time, make 1/4 what you wife makes. I am joking around, but I have been thinking of ways to make money off of writing for some time (with strategy guides being only a part of that--there can only be so many big guide releases per year, after all). Anyone here want to start something new? One of the long term goals for a group of mine up here is to have a fiction publication (what some would call a zine or ezine) that charges a minor amount and provides very high quality material in return. This is not an easy road, but there are a couple of people who are already a bit interested. The way some of you were talking, I just thought that I would mention this.

Wait--I just had another idea on the legal front. What if you wrote a guide for 4x games in general. Gear it toward Civ3, hint toward Civ3, but never spell out the details. Everyone would know the truth, but what could Prima/Infogrames do then, say that you had too many ideas? Of course, that leaves you without screenshots again, so it isn't that much of a brilliant offering.

[Velociryx]

Yep....a fellow starving artist! And you know, Maryland isn't all THAT far off.....perhaps a creative jam session is in order soon....any good Mexican restaurants you could recommend in the area....

By day, I work on a helpdesk, fixing computer problems for other folks, and surfing here when the phone's not ringing. Went to school to study business (specifically, the economies of developing nations, with an eye toward joining the Peace Corps and going to Kenya....however, upon my graduation, folks with pale skin were being hunted down and killed in number in Kenya, so I decided it a wiser course to stay home....how I wound up doing what I'm doing is STILL a bit mystifying...lol)

As to the strat guides, I don't use any screenies or pictures in any of my work anyway, so that would not cramp my style at all....I've gotten quite accustomed to 'splaining things with (hopefully) a level of clarity that renders the screenshots nice if I could use them, but non-essential. (fingers are crossed there!)

Interesting detail 'bout the method of payment....or rather, what the payment was FOR...hmmm.....have to get the input of the legal folks on that one.....I have no idea what the implications are.....but keep the faith! I got a good feelin'....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

....and another thing....

.....so then....what Prima/Infogreed is essentially saying is that, if two guys were discussing Civ3 in a Barnes and Noble coffee shop, and got talking about the game "too deeply" such that nearby listeners might actually glean some USEFUL information about the game, the InfoCops could sue them (or write them a threatening Cease and Dissist letter) because their conversations might degrade Infogreed's royalty position by drawing a couple sales away from Prima's guide.

That's very interesting to me.

I don't think there's a courtroom anyplace in America that it would stand up in, but that's very interesting.

-=Vel=-
(the nerve of these people is simply astounding....)

[HGI_Doug]

Ok, I did fail to mention two other ideas.

1) My business advisor (who knows zilch about strat guides or gaming) was interested in the possibility of calling the guide nothing more than an in-depth review. This was suggested by someone else also. The problem I see is that this has "inside joke" written all over it. Sure, we'd let you guys know the nitty gritty, but Joe Q. Gamer dialing in through Google.com sure as heck ain't about to PAY for a REVIEW.

2) Subscription based sites. Charge a nominal fee for a year's worth of membership, gather up a team of strat writers and post enough content to keep everyone happy. We could call it the Insider... oops that's taken

The real issue here is that Prima saw that we lack their overhead, our content kicked a$$ (thanks to Sniffer) and if we did ever get the money to advertise, we'd kill them. This, of course, is a conflict of interest for me anyway since authoring the Official guides puts food on my table, but... "Official Online Guides" now there's where the future is.