Dan, Soren, Jeff....please take a peek here....:)

[Expatriate]

Sniffer, have you considered selling your guides from a website thats not based in the US?

To be honest I would like to see Prima just trying to sue someone selling a guide like that from where I live (Denmark). Personally I wouldnt be afraid of any of their threats because our courts are in general a lot more sensible in their rulings (no offense to any US citizens, but you DO have cases that judges over here would laugh at).

Im sure it would be possible to use a foreign website and make sure that Prima can never trace who the person behind the website is.

[Velociryx]

Michael....DAMN! I can't believe that! I mean, I can....I do, but....SHEESH!

I'd LOVE to see the contract that gives Prima an "exclusive" on the game. Based on what we've been seeing here (from Lawyers), is that if such a contract even exists, then it's not worth the paper it's written on, becuase there's no way they could defend those rights.....no court in the country would allow that....essentially, they could keep two guys at a freakin diner from talking about Civ3 too deeply....heh...yeah....the plot just keeps getting thicker and sicker....

Keep the faith man. I know it's no real consolation since I'm a smallish potato myself, but I'm behind you 100% (and yep, in case you're curious, I'm one of the little blips on the sales report of folks who bought the guide! Great job!).

::sharpens his war axes::

Now, I don't like it, and I won't pretend that it doesn't worry me some, but the fact is, once I verify that I'm in no way infringing on any rights they can realistically enforce, and once the ship is ready to sail, she's going to go head to head with Prima's. Probably, they'll just laugh it off if they realize they can't threaten me into submission. After all, I'm just one guy. But if it causes even ONE person to lose even a moment's sleep, or wonder at what "that crazy hippie over there" might be doing, then I'll feel like I've done something worthwhile to turn the tide.

Way to go Prima....way to wreck the goodwill of the gaming community....don't let anybody talk about it....heaven forbid! Gotta make that buck. Milk it for all it's worth!!! Yeah...well, don't count on putting any of MY money in your bank account.

[Sniffer]

Thanks for the cool words, Velociryx! It feels really good to know that we won't go down without at least a few people taking notice. I was just as upset when I saw what Infogrames did to Kai. What a bunch of crap. It really makes to realize how little these companies care about the gamers who built the industry (in every real way). I'm glad that you liked my guide. If I had more than a week to write it, I would have included a lot of good ideas that I have since discovered. If you want, write to my hurricanegaming account and I will tell you my normal mail--we can trade some ideas. If I get around to it, I'll just create a strat. forum post here when I have the time (of course, maybe they'll sue us for that too)!

Any by the way, anyone who has a copy of my guide already should realize that no ones controls the IP for that guide anymore. HG had to remove it, and Infogrames did not buy us out, so the IP for my work is up in the air. That means that I will not go after anyone who distributes or uses any of my ideas. Don't sell anything (obviously), but let everyone enjoy the work. The only reason I was selling the guide in the first place was for the purpose of doing guides full-time. The Prima people get games early, are paid VERY WELL, and still don't do what the strategy buffs here in the forum are able to put together within a couple weeks of release. There has to be a way to make things work.

I should start a threat for, "What the world would be like if Prima/Infogrames' assertions were true." Everyone would talked about American politics could be sued by infringing on American IP. We would own 4/5 of the world within a few days.

One of the official Randomhouse complaints was that my strategy guide was too long. I thought that it was too short, and I wanted to do a free expansion for the guide later on! I wonder what isn't too long.

Civ 3 Strategies:

Play to Win

Fin, a guide for the community

[Sniffer]

Oh, and about the idea of writing and posting on a Denmark website, that is a good idea, but I think I'll just move to Europe entirely. I might as well enjoy the scenery! In truth, I have considered moving to England at some point, because I've heard that publishing in general is a bit more reasonable there. I've been trying to publish two fantasy novels here in the States for a couple of years, and it is pretty brutal to sell anything that isn't cookie cutter material (unless you get lucky and meet a good contact).

Still love the US, but the legal system could use a bit of tinkering. I'll bet the lawyers here on the forum agree more than anyone else.

[sophist]

Re: Interesting Thread

Originally posted by Sauron07
As a result, Prima can ask/force infogames to bring a copyright infringement case against any other guide publisher if those guides utilize screenshots, quotes or other images from within the game in their guide. Infogames does have the right to prevent reproduction of their original works for profit but it is generally not in their best interest to do so(i.e. magazine reviews=free PR so why stop them), but if Prima is paying them they may be doing this on Prima's behalf.

Wouldn't use of the screenshots and such fall under fair use, and as such, be usable? Based on my (again, layman's) knowledge of IP law, for these purposes Hurricane (or Vel, or whoever) could use the screenshots. I mean, it's not like every website that writes a review of Civ3 gets explicit permission, but 1) they all talk about what's new with the game and what it takes to win (i.e., strategy) and 2) post screenshots. Ditto for magazines.

[Expatriate]

Btw, I am also one of the people that bought your guide. I found it very reasonable to support the work you did, and the price was more than fair. We dont want Prima to ruin the work you and others might do in the future

One thing is certain: I will never buy a Prima guide for any game in the future and I hope others will consider taking the same attitude. Theyre not very good anyway, judging from the opinions posted about them here.

[Velociryx]

Heh....modders....any way we can tweak the US legal system in the editor? D'oh....sorry, mixing my realities again....::

Again Michael....my condolences on the sorry outcome of the whole affair, and if there's anything at all I can do, just PM me!

Hurricane, Kai....they're off to a good start, aren't they? I mean, the game's been out for...what? A month now? That's one every two weeks! Wow! I don't know 'bout the rest of you, but I'm impressed.....such staunch vigilance.....have they even MADE any sort of announcement (about anything!?) to the gaming community? Or, do they feel they don't need to? After all, we're just the mindless cattle they sell to. No biggie.

Yeah.



-=Vel=-

[Sauron07]

Screenshots and Fair Use

I will admit I am not an IP law expert and from my discussions with Doug at HG as well as Sniffers posts, screenshots appear to be public domain and ok to use(I will be verifying this in the near future). Other uses of game artwork, box art, ect. however would constitute a copyright violation if you used and charged for your product. Technically I believe that Infogames could give reviewers a hard time if they used box art ect, but as a practical matter the game gets free press from reviews so its not something they are too concerned about.

Overall, I am doubtful that Prima could actually enforce a contract between themselves and Infogames for exclusive rights to publish the "official" Civ 3 strat guide against any third party which was not party to the contract. Infogames may have claims of interference with contract against someone selling a strat guide which cuts into the royalties they receive from Prima for selling the "official" guide but again this is speculation without seeing the actual contract.

Basicly, I think this is an example of Prima/Infogames attorneys using the most basic tool in the attorneys arsenal, the scary cease and desist letter which costs almost nothing to draft and send out and is surprisingly effective(especially if you dont have a leg to stand on, how can it hurt?).

Once I do some more research, I may contact Prima/Infogames and request a copy of their "exclusive publishing rights" agreement, because this is ultimately all speculation until we know what deal they have and what the basis of their claim of exclusivity is.

Keep your head up sniffer, I am in contact with Doug and am willing to donate my time to your cause as well. We may keep you here in the states yet

[Expatriate]

Re: Screenshots and Fair Use

Originally posted by Sauron07
Once I do some more research, I may contact Prima/Infogames and request a copy of their "exclusive publishing rights" agreement, because this is ultimately all speculation until we know what deal they have and what the basis of their claim of exclusivity is.

Excellent idea! They cant expect us to live up to a private agreement between 2 other parties when we dont even know what their contract says.

[Zorkk]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Speaking of board games, I always wondered how Microprose got away with using the name "Civilization" since it was an Avalon Hill board game at the time. And it worked very much the same way: global expansion, tech advances, etc.

I was gonna bring this up too. Since i'm sure that Sid got his original idea for a computer civilization games from this phenomenal board game!!

Z

[Sniffer]

It would be great to score a point for the good guys this time. We would really be doing a great thing if we found a way to undermine the power of the companies to shut people down instantly. If there is a way to fight back, it will make things a lot harder for the publishers. In a sense, they would only be able to attack people who were actually hurting them. What a novel concept.

If we do find a way to get these unofficial guides back on track, I think that I'll have to dedicate the next one to all the nifty people here on the forums. Maybe I'll title it, "When Fans Attack!"

[ravagon]

Re: Screenshots and Fair Use

Originally posted by Sauron07
Once I do some more research, I may contact Prima/Infogames and request a copy of their "exclusive publishing rights" agreement, because this is ultimately all speculation until we know what deal they have and what the basis of their claim of exclusivity is.

I was curious about this aspect too. Question though - Would they actually have to provide a copy of this contract/agreement without your officially filing a writ/court order/whatever its called.

Someone also posted about Prima not having to declare its right to an exclusive contract which to me seems like absolute lunacy (whats the point of an exclusive deal if others don't know about it? Duh ... (to use an Americanism )) or a carelessly contrived deception.

Originally posted by Sniffer
P.S. I have received very unofficial support from Firaxis, saying that at least one person there was against this action. It would be very nice if Firaxis as a company was willing to say that I didn't deserve this.

Unfortunately I wouldn't think this very likely as it might place just too much of a strain on developer/publisher relations ... Condolences.

Vel - I was wondering about the viability of a community (or somesuch) letter sent to IG regarding some of their recent decisions - Translation/LE/Guides etc. - Something like the one the scenario community sent to Firaxis - Didn't do much good in that case - but seeing several hundred sigs on a "carefully phrased" e-mail/letter reflecting dissatisfaction with many of their decisions might scare somebody into thinking a bit straighter than they are now ...

[sophist]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Speaking of board games, I always wondered how Microprose got away with using the name "Civilization" since it was an Avalon Hill board game at the time. And it worked very much the same way: global expansion, tech advances, etc.

I don't remember all the details, but a quick search tells me this:

Microprose creates Civilization 1 and 2 computer games based on board game version of Civilization created by Hartland Trefoil, a British company. Microprose has a legitimate license to game concepts, name, etc. from HT directly.

Avalon Hill acquires rights to the board games from HT. Activision then buys rights to Advanced Civilization from AH (it's not clear that they necessarily had this right).

Microprose sues AH for copyright infringement for their use of the Civilization names. They purchase HT to bolster their claim. AH loses the case and rights to the Civilization stuff. Somehow out of this Activision gets the rights to publish CTP and at least one add-on.

Eventually Hasbro purchases Avalon Hill and Microprose both and now completely own the Civilization franchise. As to how Firaxis got it after this, well, I dunno. this brings us up to like 1998 or 1999.

Links:

http://www.strategy-gaming.com/reviews/civilization_call_to_power/index.shtml

http://www.gamespot.com/features/command/sec1-5.html

http://www.mimgames.com/tga/tgg/misc/microprose.shtml

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=avalon+hill+microprose+hasbro+activision+civilization&hl=en&rnum=1&selm=35F46091.B10F1891%40erols.com

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=avalon+hill+microprose+hasbro+activision+civilization&hl=en&rnum=3&selm=6q79if%24l73%241%40nnrp1.dejanews.com

[ravagon]

I think this may've come up in the civ2 forum ages ago. I didn't think the civilization board game sold very well (unfortunately - AH made some real gems while they were still in business - and I don't think they sued anybody either ) so Microprose was able to license it fairly cheaply or didn't infringe on it or somesuch.

[Sauron07]

Check out this site

Hey Guys, while doing a little research on the net last night I came across a very informative website that does a decent job of outlining the basics of copyright law and provides summaries of many of the important cases - with a specific section on software.

Check it out!www.copyrightwebsite.com


ps- Im getting more confident all the time that this is just bullying/scare tactics on the part of Prima/Infogames and that we will not have any problem fighting it if they really wanted to try and stop distribution of an "unofficial Civ III strategy guide".